I Got 9/11 Wrong
Back when the airliners crashed into the towers in NYC, those doing the crime were saying "Praise be to Allah." The lesson of this was so obvious to me. That lesson was that when religious ideas permeate deep into government terrible things happen.
It would follow then that we should not let that happen in our country. That is, the issues at the time were about the same as the issues today, gay rights and abortion. The lesson was these issues and a host of others where religious ideas took over our secular government should be identified by voters and the ideas and the politicians who trafficked in them should be scorned.
I was so wrong in assuming a big part of the public saw it as I did. Instead, a big swath of the U.S. public saw it as a reason to inject more, not less, religion into politics. There were prayers, church services and an appearance by the President at the National Cathedral. Religion in government was ramped up, not tamped down.
It reminds me of the many ways people all over the globe are conned into thinking their imaginary god is real and everyone else's is fake. There is this running joke, "My god is real, your god is not. Bang, bang you're dead."
During the Vietnam war a popular phrase repeated by zealous Christian military was, "Kill a communist for Christ." I saw a great cartoon on an atheist Face Book site today. Two ancient armies faced each other ready for battle, spears and clubs poised. The commander of one said, "Remember men, our god the duck is real. Theirs, the rabbit, is fake."
A version of this is often tossed in when one brings up the terrible death and suffering brought on by Christians during the Crusades. A standard line is, "But Islam was on the rise. If Christians had not gone over to those countries and killed and pillaged we might be Muslims today." I have many Muslim friends today and I can't imagine our communities or country being any different if Islam had had continued success. Today, the children of Muslims are leaving their faith behind just as are the children of Christians. Cultures give rise to religions. When cultures change their religions are left behind.
Even though much of the public dove into religion after 9/11 their is widespread and growing public apathy toward religion today. Maybe 20 years later the public is getting it right.
back to the Crusades again, eh. can't get that out of your head? have ever read the history of the confrontation between Christianity and Islam? since you obviously have not, let me give you a quick overview. first, Islamic forces conquered a large swath of the Christian Byzantine Empire in the early Middle Ages, leaving the Christians as an subordinated class in the conquered territories. then they continued to press against the truncated Byzantine realm, conquering Asia Minor and eventually Constantinople and southeast Europe.they were at the gates of Vienna in 1529 and again in 1683. What were the Christians supposed to do: lie down and play dead? what would you have done if you had lived at that time.
ReplyDeleteneedless to say, your constant steam of anti-Christian posts is quite irksome. seems to me that you have an unhealthy hang up of some sort. but leave that aside: you repeatedly go public with bigoted and uniformed posts that, as an academic, is quite unbecoming to you. if you are determined to bash something, you should first attempt to understand it. I would not even bash the likes of Hitler and Stalin without making an effort to understand in workings of the Marxist and Nazi ideologies.
tsm "What would you have done if you lived at that time?"
DeleteIf I had been living and been an atheist would I have been better off with Christian running things or Muslims? The Christians pillaged and burned as they went. During the Vietnam war it was "Kill a communist for Christ." I suppose during the crusades is was burn a Muslim baby for Christ.
I agree with tsm. His restating of history is accurate. Popes have been leaders of armies in the past, e.g. Pope Julius II. Julius was an obvious reference to a Roman emperor. He also funded this sculptor and painter at the same time, i.e. Michelangelo. When the Roman empire disintegrated, the Catholic Church was looked to for actually administering the civic duties of the time. The Church cared for the poor in many ways. The Church was the focal point of military defense of a large portion of western Europe.
DeleteThe whole noting of "... burn a Muslim baby for Christ." has no basis in fact. If there was someone in the Vietnam conflict (remember, it was not a war) killing communists for Christ they were hiding very well as Vietnam was far from a religious war.
To see a good example of a religious war, look to Mexico about 100 years ago and the Cristeros war that the atheist Mexican government waged against the Catholic Church. Priests and bishops were martyred to say nothing of common peasants.
The atheists murdered children by hanging, gunshot, stabbing and prolonged torture. A 14 year-old boy, Jose Sanchez del Rio was tortured for information he refused to hand over to the Mexican government. They even promised to release him if he renounced Jesus Christ. He was then stabbed in front of an open grave pit, rolled in to the grave, all while his mother and father watched helplessly.
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DeleteOne thing to consider with islam vs. Christianity is Islamic Jihad. Variations of four (4) stages. 1. peace and tolerance--2. outnumbered . 3. defensive, antagonistic-- 4. offensive through political strength, Sharia law, resulting in subjugation. The declared objective is worldwide domination through practiced patience and military growth, starting on the Arab peninsula to the present.
DeleteAll the above can be condensed to two overall forms; Defensive and offensive Jihad.
All four are determined by time, place, strength and opportunity. All four are and have been present in various parts of the world, and are incremental, all based on the Koran.
tsm "so Christians pillaged and burned...in 1099. so did the Muslims. that's the way they did things in those days..."
DeleteI think there is hope for you. You have just repeated what I have been saying here for years: Cultures run religions, not the other way around. What both Christians and Muslims believe today did not comes from the various cultures where their followers now live and what is going on there.
helper "Christianity is Islamic Jihad. Variations of four stages...."
DeleteSo now we learn you not only consider yourself an expert in which parts of the Christian Bible to take literally and which parts to take metaphorically but you are also an expert in which parts of the Koran to take literally. I have several Muslim friends who read the Koran but do not take that part as anything but ancient musings reflecting an ancient culture and having no relevance today. As a Muslim doctor I shared the stage with some years ago said to the audience (it was shortly after 9/11), "Any who claim to be Muslims and kill are not really Muslims and have no place the religion called Islam." Mohamed Allie, the boxer, thought Islam was so devoted to peace he refused to serve in the military and was stripped of his boxing titles and many millions of dollars. And wasn't Jesus all about "the sword?" Oh, we're not to take that literally. You remind me of a couple in our atheist group here who belong to a sort of anti Islam cult. The group meets regularly to read the Koran and discuss how dangerous Islam is. Their current thing is the Afghans coming to this country and how dangerous they are. The couple invited us once but we declined.
Jon; My my, you got hour boxers in a twist over this. Such a knee jerk reaction. Did I not note stage one (1) as peace and tolerance? Are you denying the presence of these stages? Perhaps you should look up the word Jihad., (struggle). and the various types and applications .
DeleteThen there is abrogation. Your stage 1 Muslim friends may not fare well with stage 4 ISIS.
Then there is conflation. A tactic you like to use. Can you conflate ISIS with peace and love with the rest of the world? Can you conflate a Califate with Democracy? (remember; theocracy).
Just stating the facts. What they do with it, and how you react to it is out of my hands.
Right now you are acting like a zealot of something you have not examined all the facts.
helper "Just stating the facts."
DeleteYes, you are stating what the Koran says. As I have said here multiple times, religions are about what followers THINK they are about. Most Muslims who live in the West think it is about peace. Many, perhaps millions, in the Middle East think it is about Jihad. "Kill a Communist for Christ" came from Christians who THINK their faith is about some righteous war.
I like to apply the British phrase to all the religions of the world, "Oh bother."
Atheism is what each individual atheist thinks it means. Oh, bother. I think you are trying to conjure up the ghost of Yogi Berra.
DeleteCatholicism, however, is not what each individual Catholic thinks it is. Study the catechism to understand what Catholicism stands for. Neither Joe Biden or Matt Noah define Catholicism.
Jon; re. "Most Muslims who live in the west think it is about peace, many perhaps millions in the Middle East think it is about Jihad". Best you check out the East London and several high density Muslim communities in France where the governments have given up, and handed over to Sharia Law. The Netherlands also have high density of Muslims There is a go-no go situation for local police. Google it yourself if you don't believe me. England, France and the Netherlands are in the West, not the Middle East. Cleveland, Detroit, and even St. Cloud MN has high density. Look at the birth announcements at St. Cloud. St. Cloud used to be mainly Catholic. Not anymore. It has been said by those in Islam that they will out breed the rest. Time is on their side. High density promotes stage three (3) and stage four (4) The same philosophy as Viet Nam.
DeleteRadicalism is a great temptation in high density for those who refuse to assimilate.
We won't be around in fifty years. Time will tell. History gives us a hint.
You must remember the "Turks" (what the Muslims were called in the 14th century) were stopped at Venice. Had they not been stopped, they would have taken over Western Europe by force, (war). Vlad the impailer contributed to the defense of Western Europe.
re. Jihad. (the struggle) in it's most benign form, is a struggle for personal piety if you can force back the Jinn.
helper--re: high density of Islam in the West
DeleteYes, there are such communities. You didn't mention Rochester MN were I visited family a lot a few years ago. Haven't we had lots of groups who are/were separated from traditional white U.S. society--some with Christian roots (Amish, Mormons, conservative Jews) in the past? I've read Islam is having trouble retaining young people. Anyway, I don't buy that whatever is happening is something prophesied in the Koran.
Matt -- "Catholicism ... is not what each individual Catholic thinks it is."
ReplyDeleteExcept for that vast majority that uses artificial birth control and the majority that poll in favor abortions being available and the majority who voted for pro choice Biden. The Catholic Church is them. Oh yeah, it's you too. It's what each person thinks it is. What your church, or any other, THINKS it is is of little importance.
Sorry, Biden's take on Catholicism is unimportant as to what Catholicism is. You have it entirely backwards. Catholicism reflects the mind of God, who is far from confused. Joe, Nancy Pelosi or Matt Noah can *think* we know what Catholicism is but we may be confused. I'm not even sure you're an atheist as you seemed to be consumed by thoughts of Christianity many hours in each day. I think you actually believe God exists but reject Him. You seem like a pre-repentant Augustine, i.e. 'give me chastity, just not yet.'
Delete