Time to Forget the Christian Nation Thing
While women are forbidden from being priests/preachers in some branches of Christianity thank goodness they are not forbidden from writing and lecturing about Christianity. A great article about the "Christian nation" notion shows us the U.S. is not a Christian nation and hopefully never will be. It is written by a woman with nerve and was published on a very Christian site, Christian Post.
Among the pilgrims were a few that wanted to establish a utopian Christian society. Some of their brethren stayed behind in Europe hoping the push aside worldly forces there and bring sinners to God.
Today, whether it is the anti abortion, anti gay/trans, anti immigration or the put prayer back in schools branch there are those who want a version of what some pilgrims wanted, a utopian Christian society. The pilgrims were disappointed. Today's Christian utopians will be also. Here is why.
The children of pilgrims did not believe the same things as their parents. Parents were roundly disappointed. The next set of parents were disappointed and so it has been ever since. The Christian nation thing was ruined by children. Today the same thing is going on. No matter how heart broken each generation of parents is the children continue to believe different things than they do.
Christian Post pushes views that both promote the idea that traditional Christian ideas are winning and articles like the link showing they are not. It regularly discusses the decline of the faith among today's young people. It would be helpful if so-called leaders would discuss the inevitable continued decline and what how the faith would function if it were but a skeleton of its former and present self.
As I've said many times, leaders and those who write about the faith seldom if ever discuss the real problem. The real problem for Christianity is the culture has moved on and the old myths about the faith do not fit the current narrative. Young people just do not believe it. Writers and leaders do not admit this. Instead, they continue to think if young people are just better indoctrinated they will buy in.
The decline has been going on for some decades now. When is it the successful indoctrination message will kick in? It's time to acknowledge the old game is over.
There is no Christian nation here.
The pilgrims did not intend to form a Christian nation, because that’s why they left Europe. The European Christians just weren’t Christian enough for them. And when they got here, it didn’t take long for them to start sorting the natives and their friends and relatives into good/bad/burn at the stake. That’s how we got Rhode Island, which was settled by what the pilgrims considered heretics
ReplyDeleteGrandma--"did not intend.." You are correct. I meant they wanted a sort of utopian and super Christian society. Roger Williams thought the church of England was corrupt and eventually established Rhode Island. As you said the other Christians in the U.S. considered Williams a heretic.
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ReplyDeletetsm-- About Roger Williams, I visit our son in Providence RI most every year and have toured historic sites and a couple of museums. I reread about him yesterday in Wikipedia. That said, I don't really understand him. There are pieces I can understand. He was gifted in languages back in Europe. When he came here he quickly spoke Native languages and found the people to be smart and knowledgeable. They, in turn, trusted him. This was heresy to the European religious factions. He had decades of disagreements. Consistently, however, he was for separations of government from religion.
ReplyDeleteI've read some of the pilgrims came here more interested in economic success than religious freedom. Can't confirm that.
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Deletetsm; It probably be more accurate to say; :Luther was strongly against mingling church and state. Calvin was not. Henry was obviously in favor of co-mingling church and state, a carry over from his Catholicism. I don't have the time or ambition to go through the bowels of my library, but the results should be evidence enough.
DeleteAt the time of Henry V111's rebellion (not reformation), he first looked at Luther, then Calvin. Based upon Luther's strong opposition of combining church and state, and Calvin's approval of it, Henry V111 went with Calvin, with the resulting of the King or Queen being the head of the CoE.
ReplyDeleteAmazing what a little puss will make a man do.
By the way, almost all Baptists are Calvinistic in various levels of intensity. which explains a lot. Most Methodists lean towards Armenius, who was against Calvin and Beza (Calvin's successor) dogma of double election, ( predestination). (with double predestination, knowing there are those who are predestined to salvation, and knowing some are going to hell, they are predestined to hell, no matter what they do or believe. See synod of Dort. However, these days, that distinction is little known or cared for.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I didn't mention the Presbyterian Church is the strongest form of Calvinism.
DeleteNow, you shouldn't wonder why there are so many Presbyterians and Baptists involved in politics.
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Deletetsm; re. LCMS folks involved in politics; They can, and some do as citizens, however you will not see a LCMS church individually, or corporately endorsing a particular candidate. If you do, let me know as to whom, where, when, and what. If that pastor you refer to mentions ANYTHING related to the postors or espousing any candidate from the pulpit, or daily bulletin he should be reported first to the eldcrs, with a follow up with the bishop. followed by a restriction of his political in church activities We have both republicans, independants, and democrats as members, and politics are left off campus, not causing problems between members.
Deletere. "concerns about separation of church and state. ; This is a long and remembered story in the history of the LCMS. In Prussia early 18oo's The king of the Prussia , wanted to unite everyone into one church for political reasons. (He was uniting the regional Prussian principalities for form the German State. He forced the Lutherans to co-worship with the Calvinists, and anyone caught not abiding with that order, and worshiping in groves, barns, etc. were caught, forfited property and pastors jailed. If you knew the Lutheran valued position of the "real presence" vs. the "spiritually present" with communion of the Calvinists, you would understand why we are so aware of the hazards of political involvement, both of church into politics and politics into church. In short, there was no communion with communion.The result of that forced union, "The Old Lutherans" as they were called then, hopped into ships, sailed the ocean blue, and up the Mississippi River to Perry County Missouri, which became the LCMS. I did say Luther himself was against mixing the two. The theocratic activity of the Catholic Church made it abundantly clear of the hazards Then there is the issue of 501c3 IRS code for non-profits not to corporately endorse any candidate, or they could loose their non-profit status. That pastor you mention should tread cautiously if he is using his office as authority. As a simple citizen, he has the right, but should he if he has Democrats in attendnce.
tsm; I need to say the hazard of co-mingling goes both ways. (1.)Forcing political/ secular positions into the church, and (2.) forcing church positions into the political / secular. No good can come from it. Someone will be offended.
Deletetsm; And then there is the matter of double predestination in Calvinism (TULIP). That too Lutherans reject. Again, no communion, (agreement).
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Deletere. diet; which one?????
DeleteYou sound as though you agree with the king of Prussia.
It was after all the last throughs of feudalism, Things and order was much different then compared to now.
I have always said state run, state sanctioned schools and churches was one of the worst things that happened to the church at large. And yet, here in the years of 2020 + some of these restrictions are being slowly reduced. Just being a citizen of a country makes one a Christian, one knows little what Christianity is about. before the Reformation, good works was the main feature, with little thought of justification by grace through faith. There are starting to be small, (yet active) self supported churches in Northern Europe. But alas, at the time of the Reformations (plural), self support was virtually out of the question, as one's wealth was determined by the size of his manure pile. All the wealth and power was in the hands of the governing. There was little to be done beyond support by the rulers whoever there are. Be they Charles 5th or Henry 8..and we all know how well that worked out. Priest holes and inquisitions make a fine example.
Re. pulpit pronouncements; That you don't know about the pulpit pronouncements, it would be best to find out first, before casting suppositions. It does make a difference, as I outlined earlier. I would like to know all the facts, the name place and date of his activity. Please get back to me.
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Deletewhich Diet of Augsberg? there sere several.
Deletere. "sometimes thought as the Republican party at prayer". Really? Have you been in attendance to witness this? I doubt it. Do you rely on street talk?
What is a "hose"? I have heard of a hoser. Is that what you are referring to?
Ever hear o f "semi Pelagianism?" Have you not heard of ; "works assist grace.? It's in your catechism.
Yes, there are a lot of Pelagians around these days". And Semi. Also many that are in the prosperity camp.
Consider- "For by grace are you saved through faith, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Note-- "by grace", (alone) no qualifications. Even Ratzinger said Luther was right.
This gets to the heart of the matter of the debate between Erasmus's "On Free Will", and Luther's "On the Bondage of the will". With Erasumes's "free will" without the work of the Holy Spirit FIRST showing the need for forgiveness also becomes a work of man preceeding justification. Ie. works vs. faith. Confession, then absolution. NOT pelagianinism or semi.
Deletetsm. re. diet of Augsberg; Or are you confused and referring to the Augsberg Confession? See Wiki -"Augsberg Confession. Good stuff. Then there is the Apology, (expanded explanation) of the Apology. More good stuff. Check out the last few articles which contain abuses of the RCC. And more good stuff.
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Deletetsm
DeleteIf you don't have the balls to leave your posts stand, you have nothing to say of importance. What are you afraid of?
re. Calvinist position. Ho do you connected justification , free will and all that" with Calvin. That was with the RCC. You lost the thread, and missed the Augustana.
tsm; Ole and Lena were on a vacation to California. Ole stopped at a gas station, and asked; "Vich vay is it to San Jose. The attendant said ;" you are new around here. The letter J is pronounced as an H. "Got it?". Ole responded with a "Ya sure". Then the attendant asked when they were leaving California, and Ole responded with; "About hune or huly.
DeleteI seem to remember Wrong way Jose.
tsm -- "your works will get you straight to heaven. just read the obits."
ReplyDeleteI would guess 95% to 99% of Christians believe good works are the most important factor and "believe in me" is worthless for getting into heaven. This is what our culture teaches them. Whatever nonsense their faith teaches them is ignored. Culture, not the Bible or what is taught in seminaries, creates the faith of people in the pews.
Jon; re. "Good works are the most important factor and "be3lieve in me" is worthless for getting into heaven". "This is what our culture, not the Bible or what is taught in seminaries..."
DeleteWhich seminaries, and which not? I invite you to go to our "Christian Dogmatics", which is taught in our seminaries. for your answer/
There you go again conflating. Caught again. You can't help yourself.
DeleteJon; Perhaps you would consider asking our members in attendance on a Sunday morning. You would find your; "Culture , not the Bible or what is taught in seminaries creates the faith of people in the pews.: to be an ignorant statement. At least in our churches.
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Deletetsm yes, nasty. almost as nasty as a run and hide sniper. shoot of mouth, then run and hide. Whatever your reasons are, are not good enough. And again, whatever your reasons are, are equally of no importance. What are you ashamed of?
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DeleteTsm; So now we have an angry Catholic without an excuse condemning someone to hell. Carrying on the great tradition of the inquisition. If you could, would you burn me at the stake too? I believe you would. You have finally revealed your true colors.
DeleteBTW does the RCC still burn people at the stake?
DeleteBTW If you don't burn me at the stake, would you prefer to boil me in oil as the RCC did to Pomponio Algerio in 1556 . What oil would you use? Motor oil or peanut oil before sending me to hell? In keeping with the Italian culture, you might as well use olive oil. Extra virgin please.
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DeleteI'm not going to answer you, because you will delete your question.
DeleteBut I must say Pomponio Algero wasn't worthy either, or was he? Only the Pope knows.
You have a computer, do the research. get back to me if you find out.
I have a question for you; What is your definition of hell? Is hell a place or a location. Some say it is in the center of the earth. The same question applies to Heaven.-but where?--- Never mind, you will delete the answer anyway.
And I don't think it made any difference to the pope and his operatives with Huss, or the first Translator of Bible into English, or the inquisitors if they were worthy of martyrdom. They would not have considered Luther a martyr if they had caught him in the ban, had he not been spirited away to the Wartburg to avoid the death of Huss.
DeleteThe real joke was selling indulgences to finance St. Peters. Ya, dat Pope Leo vas a real comedian.
goodbye. it's been nice talking to you.
DeleteNo one learns by "talking to", but by listing to.
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