Did Paul of the Bible Really Believe Women Should Not be Preachers/Priests
I recall my mother coming home from Bible study in our little rural evangelical church and saying, "One thing I learned today is I don't like Paul." She was referring, of course, to his famous sentences which direct that woman must not teach or preach to men, the male is the leader of the woman and women must obey husbands. This somewhat isolated passage attributed to Paul is HUGELY important, no doubt repeated from some pulpits several times a year. It is repeated by the current Pope Francis.
I'm enjoying a book, The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became the Gospel Truth by historian Beth Allison Barr. She is part of a growing group of scholars who have looked anew at what Paul wrote. The group finds the one passage about men being rulers over women attributed to Paul did not correctly reflect Paul's opinion of women and condemns the paternalistic branches of the faith that uses Paul to justify their self serving practices. Those who claim Paul advocated paternalism or its current version, "complementarianism," simply are wrong this group has concluded. Paul did not believe men were to hold positions of leadership over women.
I can only touch on a few of the details that go into this contrarian view. But I find it interesting and persuasive.
Many written versions of sermons, rituals and ceremonies from the 1400-1500's period have survived. Those who study what was written and preached during that period have been surprised preachers did not mention the superiority/leadership of men over women. There is a text of a wedding ceremony used in many places over at least a couple of centuries that did not quote anything written by Paul. The message to couples was that God values you equally. This view was replaced some centuries later with the view of men holding power over women.
When Paul talked of his efforts to grow Christianity and his churches he like use of metaphors. Most of his metaphors were those of the woman, not of the man. Author Barr says the mistake often made inside Christianity of to read Paul as if he made definite conclusions about such things. Instead, she says, we should read him as a journey of seeking.
So where did this Christian thing that the husband is the head of the household and the women is to compliment the husband come from? It came from the cultures Christianity moved into, author Barr and a host of others have concluded. The Romans, especially, were a male dominated society. For Christians to convert Romans it needed to revise its message to suit the locals. Paul himself advised altering presentation of the faith to win over locals. Some speculate Paul's passage prohibiting women preachers was written with this very goal in mind.
Roman rulers around the time Christianity began to infiltrate the Empire found Christianity to be effeminate. Pliny the Younger complained the faith often allowed women positions of authority, an affront to the more correct Roman male superiority.
I've predicted the male only clergy branches of the faith will knuckle under one day. How fun that will be.
Joyce Meyer left her former church because she wanted to preach. Look at her now. Follow the money, houses, etc.
ReplyDeleteHelper "Joyce Meyer left her former church because she wanted to preach."
DeleteAnd, what church might that have been? Yours, Lutheran Missouri Synod. It has a lot going for it, stays out of politics, does not quibble over little sins, etc.
It has, however, the same weakness as all of Christianity. It has chosen arbitrarily certain passages in the Bible to be treated literally, others not. It was like a group of men were sitting around a conference table many years ago. The leader says, "Ok guys. We have this entire Bible in front of us. We can pick and choose which parts we want the new church to take literally and which to just wink at. What do you think?"
Jimmy Joe says, "There is the part where Paul says women must not be preachers. I like that one."
"If it's Ok with the rest of you we'll mark Jimmy Joe's 'LITERAL.' How about some others, we can have as many a half a dozen. We don't want to look like Baptists."
forgot to mention her Gulf Stream jet.
ReplyDeleteJon; And look at the result of the unsatisfied Joyce Meyer. Do a U-Tube, and watch her strut. There was an article on all the rare and antique furnishings in her houses, (plural). She wouldn't like, or be satisfied with the low income of the LCMS. Did you check her income? You have said in the past, "follow the money". Take your own advice. The IRS has been looking at her like a throat specialist on a giraffe.
ReplyDeleteI can't visualize, nor would our members (both male and female) tolerate Meyer's antics, or theological emphasis. Her moving on was not a bad thing.
Your applied use of "arbitrary " is arbitrary in and of itself. Goose and gander. There is a lot of "arbitrary" in Meyer's emphasis.
re: Joyce Meyers, No Women Behind the Pulpit, Luth, Mo. Synod
ReplyDeleteI did see her salary, now about $900,000/year. And yes, LCMS is no doubt better off without her. But why do you bring her up? Is it to "prove" women who become ministers will make too much money?
The issue here is why LCMS does not allow women to be preachers. The view among many women scholars and others who look into where this strange notion of no women preachers came from is that it was an adaptation of Christianity to cultures where male superiority existed before Christianity arrived. There is good evidence it was not part of the Christianity practiced in its earliest period.
Now, of course, there is disagreement about the conclusions of these scholars who find evidence Christianity was not a male dominated faith early on. There is disagreement about most everything in Christianity. So everyone is free to look at history and decide for themselves. The way I look at it, there is absolutely no objective reason why any branch of Christianity should ban women from the pulpit. Oh, there is the Bible passage from Paul? OK, why is there another passage from Paul which says the two genders are equal? Sure, when Paul says they are equal he is not sincere, just trying to please a particular audience. Blah, blah ....
The best thing LCMS, Catholics, Southern Baptists and all the others can do is drop the prohibition against women preachers. The less these denominations look like the Taliban the more influential and successful they will be.
Jon; this is bothering you more than our women. Why is that? They can hold all offices, vote on all issues, and participate in all other functions, including the called office of deaconess. If you want to stick your nose in our business, join up, and be a participant. First though, you will have to go through adult catechism, and a public profession of faith. Beyond that, there is not one thing you can do beyond piss and moan on a subject that is none of your business.
DeleteYou could try a shot of bourbon and say the serenity prayer.
re. "why do you bring her up?" It's your topic. She's a woman, and she's a preacher. Not credentialed with us. She dislikes us as much as we do her charismatic emphasis. I know she would fail of all the theological and doctrinal requirements to be associated with us. In fact, her approach is very shallow, more akin to a "How to" method, with darn little Gospel. More a coach than a minister. I also believe her attitude would be extremely divisive. Our women do not admire her. Believe me! she has come up in conversations.
DeleteI gave you one example, there are more. I'm done here.
helper "Jon; this is bothering you more than our women." You have said that many times that the women in Missouri Synod are very happy they cannot be ministers. I have asked you if there has ever been a secret vote of women to verify their alleged happiness. You have acknowledged there has been no such vote because such things are not voted on. Is there a law in the Missouri Synod that prohibits a non binding advisory vote? Why don't you spearhead such a vote to prove women are pleased with the second class status.
Deletere. "second class". Ask my wife. She in no way considers herself as second class. AND SHE IS FREE AND DOES SPEAK HER MIND ! ! I'm not so sure what she would think of you as a husband. She reads these posts, and the terms " a non content, and needs an excuse to complain on matters that are none of his business"" has come up.
DeleteAlso--- we don't hold to "complementarianism" , a week term.
I asked her what she thought of you in two words, she said" demagogue and anarchist."
Deletehelper -- I have no doubt your wife feels free to speak her mind. I was asking about something else. It was promoting an anonymous vote or survey of whether women themselves in your denomination would prefer it allow women to be its preachers of whether they would prefer it not allow they to be preachers. Changing the subject by asking your wife is clever but not relevant to the question.
ReplyDeleteJon; I see a direct connection of refusing to print, burning books, and banning books. All done by authorities fearing their content. Ponder that in your brooding silence.
ReplyDeleteActually I'm OK with that because it shows just how shallow you are.
helper-- You are getting mixed up about rules and obligations. Any editor of a newspaper's editorial page does not print every letter the paper receives. On web pages I myself have had comments dumped. I do not complain, however, because I know those who run the site are trying to achieve readership and feel my views are not of interest to their audience.
ReplyDeleteBook burning by vigilantes of books selected by a library board, the board's objective is to serve the common interest, is a different matter. Sometimes, of course, a library board is intolerant of some material and does not acquire it even though many in a community think it is quite appropriate. Arguing about what is in the public's interest is what elections is about.
One policy I follow most of the time is to allow posters to put up information or viewpoints different from mine. Then I respond. I don't think readers are interested in several exchanges so I often do not allow the exchange to go on after that.
You and others are welcome to continue with complaints about how I run this site. The complaints probably will have not effect on how I do it.