Why Can't Christians see the Light
Yet another article appeared this week with a solution for the ever growing number of empty churches. This columnist and former Southern Baptist preacher ran through the usual list of "causes" that are often given for the decline in Christianity. These include people have psychological problems and are unable to accept Jesus. His solution is this: More people need to love Jesus! Of course that's only a solution if one thinks there is a Jesus somewhere. Or, every was a Jesus.
Christians like this pundit are unable to understand the mind that does not think there is a Jesus or a God. When they search for a way to stem the tide of people leaving the faith they look here and look there for causes when the real cause is right under their noses. Yes, many who leave the traditional faith and church life continue to hold some concept of the super natural. But, it's not the one the church teaches. If it were they would continue their church lives.
Lots of Protestants make light of Catholics because the Catholic branch has so much "top down" authority and such a small ground game. As we are seeing in this week's convention of the Southern Baptist Convention Protestantism has plenty of "top down" as well. "Top down" is surely one of the reasons the faith is struggling. When the entire religion is based in the minds of followers it stands to reason there will be those who resist authorities. The harder authorities slam their fists of conformity the faster some look for the door. Political governments and religions all have a limited shelf life. To pretend otherwise is folly.
What can Christianity do to stem the tide? I'm not the one to answer that except for one thing. To solve any problem one must find the problem. Pretending to find it only leads to pretend solutions. Telling believers the tide can be stemmed if more people "loved Jesus" is the not facing reality. If the Jesus preachers preach about is absent in the minds of listeners this will sound like nonsense. A good dose of reality could not hurt and might help.
Let's see now. According to a Gallup pole, violent crime up about 17 %; church attendance down roughly the same. Correlation? interesting. Or another way to look at it, non belief up crime up. Correlation? interesting.
ReplyDeletenon belief crime is up? Isn't is due to more female pastors? I know your denomination will not allow them and it keeps it crime free.
ReplyDelete@ 3;29; re. "Non belief crime is up? "Isn't (it) due to more female pastors non belief crime is up? due to more female pastors. That makes no sense at all.
DeleteTry again; with non belief, crime is up. Look at the numbers. See again ; "violent crime up about 17 percent; church attendance down roughly the same." A give and take thingie.
I didn't think you could possibly believe there was some relationship between church attendance and the crime rate. So I posted something equally ridiculous, that more women preachers caused the crime rate to rise. You did use the word "correlation," not causation. But now you seem to arguing causation.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to look at the relationship between religious participation and crime, get serious and do some study. The crime rate in the U.S. has dropped dramatically since 1990. This was about the time polling showed religion was losing favor with the public. All this period when the crime rate was dropping identification with denominations and church attendance was dropping. (I know, I know, the public perception is crime is getting worse. This is just not true.)
Then, lets look at state data. States with lower religious participation put up lower crime numbers.
So, does this mean there is a cause and effect relationship between church and crime. That is, if church numbers keep falling will crime keep falling? Probably, there is no relationship between long term church numbers and crime numbers. And, probably there is no short term relationship in your numbers. In addition, there is no relationship between woman pastors and crime.
What, then, is the demographic associated with higher crime? I'm far from an expert in this but my impression is the biggest variable in crime is economics. Higher unemployment brings more crime. Lower incomes brings more crime. Lower income states have more church and more crime. The church attendance does not cause or prevent crime.
I've written before here there are almost not self identified atheists in jails/prisons. Prisoners self identify mostly as Christian. This does not mean atheists are more law abiding than Christians. It means they are mostly from a different economic class.
As to your recent numbers, I'm guessing we will find the current bump up in crime numbers has more to do with the disruption of social and economic lives that with religion. Probably no one knows for sure yet--maybe will never know.
https://www.policearrests.com/resources/what-are-the-crime-trends-in-the-us-facts-and-statistics/#:~:text=Crime%20rates%20have%20risen%20and%20fallen%20with%20a,into%20two%20groups%2C%20violent%20crime%2C%20and%20property%20crime.
crime up, church down. Women preachers have nothing to do with it.
ReplyDeleteThe headlines are full of the murders etc. See the Trib. it's out of control. Some progressives want to replace much of the police with social workers. Now, even in No. Mpls, they are crying for more police for protection.
You brag about the closed churches.
We've talked about the prisoners that claim church. A criminologist has said many get religion after going to prison. It looks good on their resume for parole.
Your defense of non-belief is understandable. You can hardly do less.
helper "The headlines are full of murders, etc...out of control."
ReplyDeleteYou are treating the headlines as if they are accurate crime statistics. There may be a little blip going on but the trend for decades has been down.
re. The number of Christians in jail vs non; Think what were they BEFORE going to jail.
DeleteMaybe it was prosperity theology that made them rob a bank, steal a purse from an old lady, or steal credit cards. Mabey it was the free booze from looting a liqour store during a riot on Lake Street, so they had more money to give to Joel Osteen? Really?
re. "the trend, blip" . Now is now. I don't see much improvement coming. The trend is less Christian followers. I see your "blip" as an indicator of things to come. The street talk is safety concerns of many going down to Murderapolis, North or South. You can't live in the past.
Headlines this morning; 400 shot, 150 dead over 4th of July. Must be a Christian "trend".
Deletehelper--So glad you are here to inform us about the vast field of Criminology and the many papers published every year. I suppose there are millions of dollars spent on research into the causes of crime annually.
DeleteBecause you are in love with your own little theories trying to get you to consider crime without the "Christianity prevents crime" notion is not worth much of my time. You have not admitted or acknowledged what I wrote earlier the long term trend in crime numbers is down. So is are the long term numbers in Christianity. If it makes you feel smarter, just continue to ignore this. The fact remains, back when more people went to church in the U.S. there was more crime. That does not mean church causes crime. It's just two random bits of data.
A sociologist in the Twin Cities recently told the Trib it is too early to know whether the uptick in crime numbers will remain there or slowly revert to what they were before Floyd George and all that followed. I have three on the ground bits of information that mean nothing much. We have three couples we know who live in downtown Minneapolis. One couple is leaving for an assisted living place in White Bear. They have buyers interested in their downtown condo. The other two remain happy living in downtown. One lives in a apartment right on Hennepin Ave.
There simply is no know relationship between going to church and the amount of crime.
Jon ; Food for thought; It has gotten so bad in Mpls, that they are issuing bullet proof vests for firemen. In addition of false calls to ambush cops.
ReplyDeleteThis is new news
yr 2020 thirty year high homicides. 2010 @310---2020@ 499.
ReplyDeleteyep, serious crime is down. sheeit.
Want more? Got more.
helper--Gosh, crime is getting as bad as it was when most people went to church. If they start going to church now, maybe it will get even worse.
ReplyDeleteLeaving aside your little joke that the crime spike had something to do with church attendance, let's look at behaviors actually related to crime numbers. Unemployment is one. Unemployment is still higher in the Twin Cities than before the pandemic. It is about twice as high as the average among minority populations.
While not important is all of this, I was on my weekly cousin zoom meeting last night. I asked my cousin who lives on Hennepin if he sees evidence of danger where he lives. No, he said. He had walked several blocks in the downtown yesterday shopping and there was no disorder, people walking about normally. He said during the Floyd demonstrations there were police stationed around the downtown. They are now gone.
As you know, there remains some unease about large gatherings like the State Fair. Plans are for it to go forward.
The joke on you is that "the crime spike had something to do with the drop of church attendance. As far as unemployment goes, more time to compensate with more crime. If all those people who attacked the US Capital had full time jobs, they would be at work rather than create mayhem.
Deletere. walking downtown yesterday shopping (indicates day time) Ask your cousin if he felt equally comfortable doing the same in North Mpls, or South at night.
You are equally adept at wordsmithing as the Vatican.
helper "As far as unemployment goes, more time to compensate with more crime."
DeleteYou are starting to understand the relationship between crime and unemployment. More time to think about stealing, etc., and no money. Another variable is the demographics of age. Many think the long term drop in crime corresponds with a smaller percentage of young in the population. We know rural areas have fewer youth, large urban more youth. Crime is higher in the latter.
Perhaps Jon, you should go to channel 5 KSTP Mpls. and catch this evening's news regarding safety concerns of merchants and individuals in the "uptown". That includes Hennepin Av. by the way. A street celebration/ market in that area was cancled due to safety concerns. It's good to be up to date, and not live in the past.
DeleteFor further evidence, you can/ may check yahoo re. art fair cancled due to safety concerns in the uptown area. Just 15 hours ago. New News. Your friend won't have to attend.
Deletehelper---The July 12 and 17 issue of the New Yorker has a long article about crime in Minneapolis. It points out many things but I was surprised to learn that even though it has had one of the lowest unemployment rates of cities its size, it has the largest racial gap in the U.S. in wages. The article gives the impression of a city with a powder keg building for years. An interesting read about a complex problem.
ReplyDelete