Biden is a "Catholic in Good Standing"
I predicted some months ago what was and is the obvious. Some Catholic Bishops are wringing their hands over what to do about Catholic President Elect Joe Biden. Those Bishops made their bed by going all out for anti-abortion Trump. Now to "stay in the game" they need to figure out how to do some tricky politics.
I've read more than one Catholic church in the DC area has offered to host Biden for communion and whatever else. Of course, he has lived there and in his home area for decades so priests and Bishops living elsewhere lobbing bombs about his faith fall on deaf ears.
Whether Catholic or Protestant, there have always been people drawing lines in the sand defining what it means to be a "true Christian." Now Trump is drawing a line in the sand among Republicans, "Are you with me or not?" Just like the line in the sand about Catholics on abortion the Trump line will not bring in any new people to his team or to Republicans. Both are inwardly focused causes.
Within the liberal community lines in the sand are drawn also. Fortunately, there were no lines or third party candidates in the just-completed election. I don't suppose that sound strategic behavior will last very long and in four years some group will want more than the Democratic Party is willing to go for. Like most everything else, our two party political may have a limited shelf life.
Stiff arming conservative Catholics who want certain rules applied or punishment metered out has failed on other fronts as well. Just as there are priests ready and willing to give abortion rights President elect Joe Biden communion so it is also that the Catholic church of Germany is stiff arming those who want it to take a moral position against homosexuality. With its government collected money the German church can do most anything it wants and not suffer discipline from Rome.
It seems like the priests who give Biden communion are consistent with the Pope's admonition the Catholic church conduct itself in a priest-like manner. That is dealing with individual people's needs. This is a different posture than making sweeping political deals of "do this and get the Catholic vote" kind frequent in recent decades.
Good for the priests who give communion to Biden and for the Pope who, at least somewhat, guides the Catholic church in a positive direction.
There is no such drama surrounding Biden, as you claim. DC Cardinal Wilton Gregory was anti-Trump before the election and has announced he will not excommunicate Biden nor ban him from the sacraments.
ReplyDeleteWho elevated Gregory from Archbishop to Cardinal on October 25, 2020? Pope Francis, of course. So, it is expected that other bishops in the mold of Gregory would treat Biden in a similar fashion.
Other bishops have already told Biden, some years ago, that he can no longer receive the Eucharist. It is important to understand that each bishop is the Church authority on many matters, in their diocese, i.e. district. Cardinal Gregory cannot order Fargo Bishop John Folda to allow or disallow the Eucharist from Biden.
I doubt many, if any, bishops need to "stay in the game" as you state. There is no game. Biden has shown his utter lack of respect for Church authority or teaching. Each Bishop is independent of the others except that the Archbishops and Cardinals do have some authority over claims made against certain bishops in their episcopal sphere of influence.
For someone who criticizes the Catholic Church so frequently, you really don't want to understand how it works.
The Catholic Church, or should I say the ordained (priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, pope), should always conduct itself as true and faithful priests, as there is no "priest-like manner". The Catholic Church, i.e. the entirety of the ordained and baptized, have spiritual needs. The Church needs all the attention from the priests. This includes the sacraments, spiritual direction, admonition, education, etc.
ReplyDeleteA priest does not act in a "priest-like manner" when he gives the Eucharist to an undeserving person. In fact, the priest who would knowingly give communion to a person in a state of mortal sin willfully acts in a non-priest-like manner.
The Church authorities in Germany risk their souls when they act against Church teaching. They can go to their eternal judgment with truckloads of money poured into their graves and it won't make a bit of difference to God. But even before their death, they can still be disciplined from Rome.
Consider the following bit of discipline by Pope Francis against a German Bishop.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2013/10/24/vatican-suspends-bishop-of-bling-over-40-million-home-renovation/?sh=20c907df486e
Critics of Liberace were usually met with Liberace's coined rebuttal, "When I heard of your criticism, I cried all the way to the bank". The German bishop didn't enjoy Liberace's independence.
Matt--"...Pope Francis against a German Bishop."
DeleteI was referring to the money the German Catholic Church pays into the Vatican coffers. So long as the cash flow remains the German Catholic Church can retain its gay friendly position. The German Catholic Church knows full well its ability to stay on good terms with the German political community, and retain government collected money, is dependent on on staying politically tuned in.
You can enjoy your opinion of how it works but the reality is neither of us know. There is so much more to the Church and its interaction with the German prelates than the simple flow of money. You can state that the ghost of Martin Luther is responsible for the situation in Germany and people would laugh. I'm sure many would laugh to think that Rome bows to the flow of money from Germany.
DeleteIn fact, your assertion is probably false based on the sole example I gave of the disciplined German bishop being suspended from his position as Bishop and removed from his $40M Church home. The German bishops did not suspend money going to Rome.
Matt -- "...but the reality is neither of us know."
ReplyDeleteI agree with that. No doubt there are many complex things going on in a vast organization like the world Catholic church. There are two facts so far as I can tell are both correct. 1.) The Catholic Church of Germany remains liberal of homosexuality and same sex marriage. 2.) The Catholic Church of Germany has its own source of revenue. I think those two things are related. But, as you note, it could also be they are not.
I'll add a third, perhaps not a "fact" but a political theory: Because revenue of the German Cath. Church is collected by the government, the church must remain at least somewhat politically popular. At least it cannot become terrible unpopular. Otherwise the public would demand government stop acting as a collection agent. This latter issue is why the Pope can discipline a lavish-living Bishop. It is always popular with the public to do such a thing. On the other had, it is (probably) not possible for any Pope to force anti gay positions against the will of the German Cath. Church.
The Church has never been "anti-gay" or "anti gay". The Church talks wonderfully and lovingly about sex It has to do so under the direction of Jesus Christ. Therefore, people who rebel against Christ often confuse the issue. It all flows from the Marxist position that humans are not free if they are burdened by religion or private property.
DeleteI am not well educated on the entirety of the Catholic Church in Germany to know if the Bishops and priests have rejected the teachings of Christ on sexuality. I do know that the government collects X percent of paycheck income to funnel to the Catholic Church in Germany. I don't know where it goes once it leaves the government's hands.
I do know that some Germans who want to be married in a Catholic Church in Germany can be refused for no other reason than they don't register to have X percent of their income given to the Catholic Church. BTW, there are similar check-offs for other religions. Perhaps there is a check-off to atheist organizations - something for you to explore and report back here.
The whole Church funding mechanism is antithetical to pretty much anything I believe and know about to the Gospel. To say it is ripe for abuse is to say the fox should be guarding the hen house or the wolf pack the pig barn.
When one considers the man, Peter, once sees a man who lives in the presence of Christ, witnessed his every move, every utterance, every miracle and still denied Him 3 times. Peter, the horribly flawed man, was chosen by Christ to lead the Church on earth after Christ was crucified, died, was buried, rose again, reappeared to the apostles and then ascended to Heaven.
To think that the modern Church, separate in time from the earthly life of Christ, separated from Peter, the flawed man yet Saint, would be led by sinless popes, cardinals and bishops is folly. And yet, the Church still finds wonderful people, modern day saints and great leaders. Witness Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen, Saint Mother Theresa, Saint Pope John Paul the Great, Saint Bernadette and hundreds more.
To be clear, as you are often not, the Catholic Church in Germany, like the Catholic Church worldwide, does not conduct marriages of any couples other than heterosexual (1 man, 1 woman) couples. There are no "same sex marriages" as you imply. There are some German prelates who like to skirt with immorality by stating it would be not so bad to bless these civil unions (homosexual). But they never go on record nor do they practice this fleeting thought of theirs. I have no doubt some renegade priests have quietly done this. They might as well leave the priesthood.
DeleteAs for homosexuality, the Church is not a museum of saints. It is a hospital for sinners. There are plenty of heterosexual sins and sinners who can be forgiven. Likewise, there are homosexuals sins and sinners who can be forgiven. There are thieves, murderers, gossipers, liars and all sorts of sins and sinners who are forgiven. God's strong suit is mercy. He's not bad at love, charity, hope and forgiveness, either.
As best I can tell, no Catholic churches in the world are funded by the Vatican. St. Anthony of Padua is funded by its parishioners; not the diocese, not the city, not the county, not the State and not the feds. Your item (2) above is irrelevant. I think I've clarified item (1) above, as well.
As for the third item, I'll grant you that people can get very cozy with an income stream. No one wants to turn off the spigot. I will refer you to Wikipedia, search for "Freedom of religion in Germany". I think the reference will invalidate your third item, but I've known you to disagree with me in the past.
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DeleteMatt -- "There are some German prelates who like to skirt with immorality...."
DeleteI don't know if you are intentionally being misleading or have not read up on the German Catholic Church. A Bishop's Conference a year ago concluded homosexuality is not of one's choosing. They do not consider homosexual relationships a sin. After a long study they advocate new teaching in the church to reflect their conclusions. Absolutely they do not think approving homosexuality is "skirting with immorality."
https://www.breitbart.com/faith/2019/12/11/german-bishops-pronounce-homosexuality-normal-and-unchangeable/
P.S. I need to more accurately reflect the link. The German Bishops voted to find homosexuality as normal as heterosexuality and adultery to no longer be considered a "serious sin."
Delete"The Church [Roman Cathlic Church] has never been "anti-gay" or "anti gay"."
DeleteYou got that right, with them being landlord to the biggest gay steam bath in Europe, right at Rome.
Henry: One of the Ten Commandments is to not bear false witness.
DeleteThe 2013 story purporting to place the Vatican as landlord to a homosexual gay bathhouse has not been substantiated, at least to my knowledge.
What I have found, just today, is that there is a multi-story building which houses the gay bathhouse on one floor and 20 apartments on the higher floors. The Vatican purchased the 20 apartments but not the bathhouse. None of the articles which claim the Vatican is the "landlord" to the gay bathhouse / steam bath actually shows any proof of their claim.
It's been 7 years and hardly a peep of proof can I find on the whole of the Internet.
Can you provide any proof of your claim other than a story (without proof) of your claim? Just repeating a claim does not make it a fact.
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DeleteMN,
Deletehttps://www.irishcentral.com/news/vatican-buys-europes-biggest-gay-bathhouse-and-sauna-197292981-237571021
Don't be embarrassed if you profess the Catholic Church has never been anti-gay. I am trying to assist you in affirming that proposition. Why the shame? I never cast any. It seems guilt of some sort comes from your side.
Henry:
DeleteThe Irish Central is one of the worst written pieces on the topic. 1. They don't show any proof. 2. They never claim the Vatican or any Catholic group purchased the gay bathhouse or acts as their landlord. 3. They try to paint the Catholic Church into the picture with the bathhouse. They can't but they try.
The truth is not clear but what is clear is that one of the 2013 articles or articles since 2013 show any proof of your salacious claim above, "You got that right, with them being landlord to the biggest gay steam bath in Europe, right at Rome."
There is not even proof that the place is the largest anything in Europe!
Do you have any other links to attempt to prove your tawdry claim?
BTW, it is not unknown in the USA to have Christian pro-life organizations in very close proximity to abortion killing centers, with the aim to attract pregnant women to the Christian side of the abortion struggle. No one would ever claim that the Church was involved in abortions, despite the close geographical proximity.
MN,
DeleteThere are a couple sources already shared. Common sense prevails with what we know about the painful, slow reforming sexual abuse tendencies of the RCC. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it might be a duck. With the RCC's reportedly "never been anti-gay", there should be no shame with the arrangement as reported, and only increases the veracity of the 2013 reporting. If you are true to your values, you should be embracing the situation. Is there a tinge of guilt? Maybe the Holy Spirit is working on you. I don't know.
Henry:
DeleteYou can't prove a claim so you resort to childish "duck" stories. All your statements and claims don't add up to 1 tiny shed of proof. You engage in bearing false witness under your mindset that the Catholic Church logically would be a landlord to a gay bathhouse. What if someone said the same about you or your church?
I'll stand by standard, logical forms of evidence. Show me proof by showing a lease, an admission by the actual landlord, a canceled check by the gay bathhouse, anything which would be considered proof rather than salacious wish-it-were-true-to-embarass-the-RCC claims.
And no, there are no sources already shared. Your only shared source is the bogus Irish Central story which is the definition of yellow journalism.
If you had any proof, you would gleefully post it here.
I have earlier presented the Vanity Fair article to you. We have two published sources. We have the histories of the sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic Church. We have the histories of Pope John XII, one of many who sexually helped himself to youth and men.
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XII
Then, we have Matt Noah advising us that, "The Church [Roman Catholic Church] has never been "anti-gay" or "anti gay"." This is very consistent with other data sources. I am unsure why you reacting as you are to the reported news from several sources, consistent with other data, that the Vatican owns the property housing the largest gay steambath in Europe?
Again, no proof from the fraud and huckster. "We" have no published sources.
DeleteThe Irish Central article does not constitute as a source since it is simply conjecture and handwaving. Same for Vanity Fair, except they don't even mention a bathhouse in any of the articles that were returned from Google.
I'm feeling pretty outraged at your behavior, Henry. Confess, as it is good for your soul. Pride is an awful sin, as is falsehood. But Christ has mercy if you seek it.
I understand, Mr. Noah. You have your work cut out for you in defense of what has gone on in the Roman Catholic Church. You will continue to be weary from the necessary work.
DeleteBathhouse, steambath, sauna...same thing. No sense parsing words. It is in the article.
Pretty clear what is going on there. It appears to be a good business model for that particular establishment to be located that close to the Vatican. Largest in Europe, or so they say.
I still am getting mixed signals from you. You seem to embrace this culture with a declaration of "not anti-gay", but then you want to live in this alternative world of denying what is going on there and who reportedly owns it.
There is evidence of sexual abuse in every organization in every country. My church, your church, Jon's freethinkers, etc.
DeleteThere is also a great history of morality and great, charitable works in lots of organizations.
Certain people take great delight in the failings of others. It makes them feel better about themselves. That is a voluntary behavior and not very commendable.
There is no delight in the fact that priests have four times the AIDS rate as the rest of society. That is the ones who report, so the real statistic is likely much larger. This is a crisis, while you play word games with sauna/bathhouse/steambath, and stew over being outraged at me. Now, you are looking to blame other organizations as the excuse. (Everybody does it)
DeleteHenry, You've lost credibility. You are dredging up an old assertion which has no proof. In fact, the assertion was withdrawn after it was questioned. To see the article from which I report, look at https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/280/article/priests-aids
DeleteSo, it appears USA Catholic priests back in 2000, the era from which your misinformation arises, are HIV-infected at about the same rate as the entire adult male population in the USA.
Like your disproved claims on gay bathhouses, the original story is replicated worldwide such that it appears 1 bad story becomes at least 100 bad stories. No journalism is practiced, just lazy copy and paste.
Tampa Bay replicates the KC Star article, 5 years after! https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2000/01/30/hundreds-of-priests-in-the-u-s-die-of-aids/
ACT-Up New York, even got into the *act* - https://actupny.org/YELL/catholicpriests.html
Bearing false witness, one of the Ten Commandments, seems to be your downfall, Henry.
I am glad to have had credibility in order to "lose" it. Thanks for the compliment! Just trying to save priests, while you persist in whistling past their graveyard. I am kind of pro-life!
Delete