What Did Ancient Atheists Say
A wise Chinese philosopher in about 300 BCE expressed atheism in a way as fresh and modern as anyone today. Paraphrasing, "Don't waste you time praying. It will get you nowhere. If you think it rained because you prayed it would have rained anyway. Instead, study, work and be lucky and you will have a better life."
We know from surviving writing there were atheists all over the world at that time. And, there were 100's of religious people cancelling out each other's gods.
While not about what we call ancient times, I have on my shelves books by recent authors who combed through newspapers and letters, 1600's and 1700's, in the U.S. and Europe to find references to non belief. The books were written in response to conventional wisdom that the U.S. was packed with fervent Christians from the Pilgrims to today.
Today's conventional wisdom comes from history books written by the winners, not by the losers. Christians won the cultural wars during these past four or so centuries. All during this time, however, there were skeptics in the highest positions and in the taverns.
My view is the percentage of any population in any continent that does not believe in any god is roughly the same. It appears different in different places and over time because people are asked about their views. During some periods of time people feel more free to express themselves candidly and not so much during other periods. Today the percentage of people calling themselves atheists is growing. That may be because it happens to be a time when people feel freer to express their real beliefs than they have for the last several decades.
There was a period following independence that appears to be much like today. The U.S. had freed itself from both the Crown and its church and felt free to declare their lack of religious faith. This was from the 1770's to the mid 1800's.
When the Chinese wise man about 300 BCE wrote was a period of recorded history. We have to conclude atheists were on the planet for the 2-300,000 years of human existence. Belief in gods has shifted from one to another. Atheism has not changed.
It would wise for us to learn from our elders.
300 BCE? One wonders if the original writings exist. How many transcriptions, and translators / translations, including dialicts to get to this point.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how they dated their writings as B.C. (Before Christ) and BCE (Before somethingohterthanchristtoappeaseatheists) would have been off the table. Was it AM/BM (After Moses, Before Moses), AN/BN (After Noah, Before Noah). Noah makes a good reference point as it was BF/AF (Before Flood, After Flood). How about BTC/AFT (Before Ten Commandments, After Ten Commandments). So many choices and all possibly emotionally harmful to atheists. Who would an atheist sue back then?
DeleteMatt -- BCE versus BC''
DeleteI don't know exactly what transpired to bring about the change. Certainly the old way was simpler. Surely it must have changed because of controversies as to if and when Jesus was born. There are disagreements within the Christian community so I don't think it correct to claim it was done by atheists. By long usage the dates became bench marks but the claim that "Christ" was born on date zero was unsubstantiated.
The exact date of Christ's birth is unknown. For the sake of establishing calendars, one was picked around 525 A.D.
DeleteThe Gregorian calendar is the most widely used calendar in the world today. For decades, it has been the unofficial global standard, adopted in the pragmatic interests of international communication, transportation, and commercial integration, and recognized by international institutions such as the United Nations.
The BCE and CE was a relatively recent departure from the international standard. It is certainly favored by anti-theists and atheists since BC stands for Before Christ.
It surely did not change because of whether or if Christ was a real man or God.
However, the calendar was centered around the day that Christ was born. If not, why was the calendar labeled as 1 BC and 1 AD? A date had to be chosen so no matter what different Christian denominations, Muslim branches or Jewish rabbis said, a date was chosen and it was chosen with Jesus Christ as the midpoint of BC and AD.
helper--"How many transcriptions, and translators ... "
ReplyDeleteGood point. He may never have said this. I might add this to the blog.
Did Mao actually say every "saying" in his little red book?
ReplyDeleteAtheism today is diverse and it probably was long ago. Jon Lindgren is a very different atheist than many other atheists one might meet. How many write blogs about hating Christianity, belittling Christians and driving wedges between denominations. Jon Lindgren is not your garden variety atheist; he is a true anti-theist. I would venture he believes in God but despises, rejects and seethes in anger with God. At least that is where the evidence points.
ReplyDeleteBelief in a god, gods or the actual God is indeed varied. It has shifted from ancient times to modern times. But there is an unbroken line from Adam and Eve of the Old Testament to Jesus Christ, the New Testament and today's Jewish and Christian faiths. Not discounting the existence of major religions such as Islam, Buddhism, etc., Christianity has found particular disdain with Jon.
Mention abortion, homosexuality or Catholicism will likely set off a brush fire of repeated postings, misinformation and some enlightened truth. We'll hear of the "need" for abortion, Norma McCorvey's abortion and the single cell human being. There is no "need" to kill someone, Norma never had an abortion and, yes, Catholics and many other Christians believe a person is created at conception, a person with a soul, created by God.
Jon criticizes my Catholic Church for believing that a single cell human is a person, entitled to protecting and I criticize him for condoning and worshipping abortion done moments before birth. Somewhere in the middle is the 99.999% of all abortions that Jon doesn't want to talk about ... so he focuses on the moment of conception. There, he hopes to crucify all illogical Christians. It is there I am very comfortable in preaching God's teaching that life begins at conception. Jon's argument is not with Matt Noah but with God.
Atheism entered the world about the same time Adam and Eve sinned and were expelled from the Garden of Eden. I don't see where that is something to boast about or trumpet. One can honestly state that were it not for sin and atheism, we would all be living in the expanded Garden of Eden.
Matt Noah, May 24, 2020 at 6:51 PM
ReplyDelete“Jon Lindgren is not your garden variety atheist; he is a true anti-theist.” I do not know what variety of atheist Jon is but I am quite certain he is not the Garden of Eden variety. Perhaps today’s hard atheism or anti-theism in America is a consequence of the excessive influence of Christianity in politics and government. You know the separation of church and state stuff. Democracy is hard and messy. Many citizens nowadays seem to prefer it easier; a much more authoritarian government led by a “golden calf” type president. Anyway, “Atheistic indifference towards not only theism but also religion is relatively common and would probably be standard if religious theists weren't so active in proselytizing and expecting privileges for themselves, their beliefs, and their institutions.” https://www.learnreligions.com/atheism-and-anti-theism-248322 .
“Belief in a god, gods or the actual God is indeed varied.” Christianity for instance asserts god is essentially and eternally trinitarian. Such an assertion does presuppose a god, some god or other, is logically possible. That in turn presumes a non-trinitarian god is also logically possible. Therefore the Christian trinitarian god is not logically necessary. Can a contingent god be actual? I suppose belief in a god doesn’t have to be rational.
“Atheism entered the world about the same time Adam and Eve sinned and were expelled from the Garden of Eden.” About what time BC do you think Adam and Eve sinned? Where about’s is the Garden of Eden? It didn’t expand after a vicarious atonement of all humanity by a god-man so I guess it ain’t going to happen.
I know, I know, literalism, hyper-literalism and all that stuff, but I just don’t know how to do a so-called literal reading of a collection of similes, analogies, and metaphor so I plead innocenct by ignorance.
Whether Adam and Eve lived 6000 years ago or 6,000,000 years ago, is not the principal and salient point. It matters little. What matters is the God created and Adam and then an Eve. They are the first 2 humans with souls. They sinned. The Garden of Eden is not to be found but you can research the subject. Start with a Wikipedia page on "Garden of Eden" and will find references to the confluence of 4 rivers.
DeleteBTW, God is not an exercise in logic. He is a spirit, the spirit with no beginning and no end, begotten, not made. If you can prove that last sentence logically you will have have no need of Faith, and neither will the rest of humanity. God is the not the end result of a mathematical, physical or logical proof.
Amen I say to you. And good evening.