Spreading the Virus Through Communion
Why would anyone, anywhere in the world, think the ritual of communion is so important lives should be put at risk to keep up the practice? Yet, there are religious leaders who insist it must continue.
While I could never understand or enjoy the ritual I know it is a powerful one to many people. We had a wonderful preacher years back that told of going to nursing homes and performing communion. He said it was so emotional to some who could not speak that when he himself went home he was exhausted.
The various versions of Protestant communion are not very sanitary. The best one is taking the tiny plastic tumbler which is thrown away. The bread as I recall came in squares on a plate which was reasonably safe. Worse is the practice at the liberal church up the street, pulling off a piece of bread and dipping it in a bowl of juice. I will not do that one.
Catholics have big wars on the internet about whether the wafer is placed on the tongue by the priest or scarfed some other way. I was at an Episcopalian church once where everyone drank from the same container, just wiped off between people. Disgusting.
If I were an entrepreneur I would start now selling communion wafers in sealed plastic envelopes and sips of wine in sealed bottles. That's the only way the ritual can continue.
Where's your scientific study that concludes that COVID-19 spreads through Communion? You cite one article on an openly hostile website that starts off calling Communion the "magic cracker". But your usual inflammatory and incorrect headline, "Spreading the Virus Through Communion" belies the fact that during non-pandemics you are silent on the matter of spreading viruses, e.g. flu.
ReplyDeleteIt's been a little over 2 weeks since I have received the Eucharist or gone to Mass since Bishop Folda and Bishop Hoepper have canceled public Masses.
Meanwhile, people use WalMart, Family Dollar and other grocery stores as if nothing has changed.
Matt--"Where's your scientific evidence..through Communion."
ReplyDeleteI don't know if there is even one case attributed to Communion. As you know, many people who are sick don't know where they contracted it. You would have to admit Communion is a risky practice.
As Perry Mason would say, "Thank you. Your honor, I'm done with this witness."
DeleteCatholics have been receiving Communion for over 2 millenium. It hasn't killed us off, yet. At times, it is only distributed in the body form, not the blood. I believe this is done for 2 reasons. First, it is more sanitary. Second, it is sufficient to receive under only one form. It is instructive to note that the blood form was not distributed during my first few decades as a Catholic. The blood form was reserved for only the celebrant, i.e. the priest. The "kiss of peace", i.e. shaking hands or hugging in Mass to wish one another the peace of Christ usually gets axed first during flu season.
The dispensation from Mass for an entire diocese or an entire country is unprecedented in my lifetime.
What I find incoherent is the argument that abortion is somehow an essential medical service in some States (where the governor is pro-abortion). My "non-essential" back surgery is indefinitely postponed so my physicians can help treat the pandemic. But it's OK to excuse abortionists from treating people with the pandemic?!?
Matt--"..that abortion is somehow an essential service in some states.."
DeleteI don't know the legal issues involved but it is being challenged in the courts. The anti abortion Governor here in Iowa has backed off on stopping all abortions.
The thing is, if your back surgery is postponed, I assume it can be performed later. If an abortion is postponed it cannot. So, postponing abortions is banning them altogether which does not conform to the Roe decision. I don't think you can compare your back surgery to abortions--unless your condition is deteriorating and the surgery cannot be performed at all if it is delayed.
Delaying abortion as a non-essential surgery, which it is, may either lead to a late-term abortion, or a birth. The birth would then result in either adoption or raising the child. If the abortion is done when requested/scheduled, it could lead to the death of one or more COVID-19 patients.
DeleteThe delay in my back surgery will lead to prolonged pain until the surgery can be done at a later day.
Are you saying it is more important to kill a baby, and possibly one ore more COVID-19 patients than it is ot treat COVID-19 patients?
Matt "Delaying an abortion..may lead to either a late term abortion of a birth."
DeleteThat's my point. Late term abortion is unlikely to be available and birth is no abortion. So, delaying an abortion is, as I explained, preventing all abortions. Roe does not permit this.
The Roe v. Wade decision does not "permit this". If no physician were willing to kill your baby, you will not get a dead baby. You will give birth.
DeleteIf there were abortionists required to combat a pandemic, you will not get a dead baby. You will give birth. Roe is no sacred ruling that requires a particular surgery be performed. No one has a constitutional "right" to any particular surgery or treatment.
The pandemic is pointing the absurdity of the Roe decision.
You seem to be saying that abortion trumps all other medical care in the USA. That's insane.
The Bible does not say; "Go forth and be stupid". Nor does it say to be defiant, and do it anyway, in spite of what is now known. (arrogance and pride) This applies to communion and large congregational services.
ReplyDeletePeople in concentration camps defied Nazis and were both tortured and murdered. Were they stupid?
DeleteI agree that the Bible does not say, "Go forth and be stupid." But it does say to be defiant (to sin). That sentence you wrote assumes the situation of the current pandemic and a whole bunch of assumptions involved.
DeleteWhenever the government makes a case for restricting constitutional rights, they run headlong into a problem. I think a strong case could be made by anyone who wanted to sue based on their constitutional right to free speech and assembly as well as religion. And what of the constitutional right to bear arms ... when the government closes gun stores and restricts the right to purchase the arms they are constitutionally guaranteed to own.
The silly argument that abortion is an "essential service" during the pandemic flies in the face of logic. Healthcare providers are not required to perform any and all healthcare services. Moreover, despite an ob/gyn or general surgeon or PCP being able to deliver a baby, it does not require them do so.
Another tricky argument can be heard as to how the government can tell healthcare providers to shut down some services in favor of treating a pandemic.
I watch a fair amount of broadcast/cable news and I haven't seen one constitutional attorney/scholar address any of what is currently happening during this pandemic.
Matt; Context my dear boy, context.
Deletelittle helper: Context is important. But your example lacks.
Deletelacks what? You want to expand it beyond communion and large assemblies? That is out of context of my 8;22. Go find your own context, and argue with Jon. I won't play your game.
DeleteMatt; Your out of context example sucks.
DeleteAnswer to question at beginning. From what I've been seeing or hearing on news there are not many, if any in the United states (not sure about the whole world) that are keeping up the sacrament of holy communion and putting lives at risk. It sounds like all (almost all, at least for the catholic church from what I've heard) bishops, even pope, have decided to suspend this for now in order to not put lives at risk.
ReplyDeleteWhy can't the practice be revised to make it safer. There are these letters that appear for certain events, "BYOB", Bring Your Own Booze. Worshipers could bring their own versions of Jesus' blood and flesh. I mean the whole thing is fake to begin with. Wine is fake blood. Grape juice is fake wine, bread or crackers are fake flesh. People could bring bottles of Diet Pepsi and it would work fine, maybe a tiny Snickers Bar.
ReplyDeleteJon Lindgren April 3, 2020 at 6:54 AM
DeleteSorry to post this blast fro the past again - no I’m not, it is beautiful:
“Actually, Xtians and New Agers have a lot in common. Some believe in the supernatural power of crackers and others believe in the supernatural power of rocks.” Grandma.
Some say a woman’s access to an abortion is not an essential service during a pandemic. As is often the case here, one of the most contentious topics is abortion. For my part I give you the Castle Doctrine: “A *castle doctrine*, also known as a *castle law* or a *defense of habitation law*, is a legal doctrine that designates a person's abode or any legally occupied place (for example, a vehicle or home) as a place in which that person has protections and immunities permitting one, in certain circumstances, to use force (up to and including deadly force to defend oneself against an intruder, free from legal prosecution for the consequences of the force used.” To the examples of vehicle and home we need to add a woman’s body. Women need a castle law to protect their reproductive rights.
I don't think it can be revised to make it safer because the problem of all the people gathering would still be the same even if they brought, Pepsi, crackers, or snicker bars. I do have a question about abortion for Jon Lindgren. I'm not sure how old you are now, but at one point you were in your mothers womb. When would you say it would have been permissible for her to choose to abort you, 6 weeks or 8 months, ect.? I know it is a harsh question and I don't mean it to be disrespectful to your life, but am truly curious and wondering on what your answer would be. No harm meant. Respectfully.
ReplyDeleteJoseph "at what point were you in your mother's womb."
DeleteI've been asked this question countless times. The answer is the same. I know only one thing about when a human's life begins. I know it is not a conception. I know one fertilized cell is not a human being.
you know that? how do you know that? as far as I know, the medical community for the most part, doesn't agree with you. In all my time spent challenging you, I have no recollection of a time when you gave a detailed, up front, explanation as to when, in your opinion, human life begins. it's been a lot of dodge and hedge sophistry.
DeleteWell, I do know I was in fact in my mothers womb. She told me I came out of there and I guess I don't have any reason not to believe her. As far as when I was put there, I don't know any other way that I've been told other than that through Gods miraculous design of creating human life through conception of my father's sperm and mother's egg meeting to create me. I guess until someone gives me an explanation better than that I would tend to believe that is how I was put in there.
Deleteunknown "as far as I know the medical community for the most part doesn't agree with you."
ReplyDeleteI have never, EVER, seen a paper from "the medical community" (whatever that is) saying the human life begins when the one cell is fertilized. Now, there are religious doctors no doubt that will say such a thing because that is what their religion tells them. There has never EVER been a referred paper from a legitimate science source that declares life begins when the one cell is fertilized. Please don't come back here posting such B.S.
ever looked at an OB-GYN manual? seems that I made old Jonnie angry. and due note that I didn't get any direct response to my question. just the usual: when you can't or won't answer a direct question, just bluster.
Deleteunknown "ever looked at a OB_GYN manual?"
ReplyDeleteIf you own one, please quote from it, "a human being begins at the moment the egg is fertilized."
I asked you not to post B.S. and you did it anyway. I'm asking again, do not post until you have a science-based source of information which declares human life begins at the moment of the fertilized egg.
Of course, you will again avoid doing this since there is no such source anywhere. It is a religious concept.