Where Did the Noah Flood Tale Come From
It's quite obvious the Noah flood tale came from oral stories passed down over camp fires for generations. Versions of it existed around the world. We can image a person who has not traveled more than a few miles over his life time would consider the entire world to be whatever he has seen. A local flood, then, becomes a world-wide flood.
From the region where the Bible was written there were long periods of flooding. It would be logical a flood myth would have been passed down from prehistory times.
I have written several times about the Noah flood myth and with the "lock down" I decided to spend some time looking at the Catholic Encyclopedia. That is a massive document as I understand it approved by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and is on line. It has a long segment about Noah's flood. It is amazing Catholic staff, and I suppose other branches of Christianity, have spent so much money going over the story and splitting hairs about what it may or may not mean. I can't review all of what is included there but can make some observations about it.
The long essay goes through all the various reasons the story likely is not history but a myth from prehistoric times. But, interspersed in the essay periodically are sentences which warn the reader the official church position is that the story is actual history and Catholics are not to believe otherwise.
The essay begins by noting there are two different versions of the story with different details. It notes the versions appear to have come from different time periods and different writers. At one place it notes the story appears to have been written from an eye witness account, quite funny.
Then the essay takes off in different directions pointing out many reasons why the story is considered myth not history. Could use of the word "land" instead of "earth" mean the story was intended to be about a regional flood?
It notes there are flood stories in societies around the world and points to reasons they cannot all be attributed to the same flood. It questions how Noah could have put animals of the ark that were then located in other parts of the world. The essay explains the story could have referred to an "anthropological flood" instead of an "archaeological flood." The former meaning it was part of a society's mythology and not an event which has archaeological evidence.
Since forever, the question asked is, "If stories in the Old Testament are not true why should we believe any in the New Testament are true?" The Noah flood is a good reason to doubt what appears in the New Testament.
you claim to be a devotee of science. yet you ignore the demonstrable evidence for the origins of the flood story. I won't repeat in detail because I have commented on this before. sea levels rising several hundred feet as the glaciers melted 20K-15K years back. the Black Sea flood. are you incapable of learning anything? that not the scientific spirit.
ReplyDeleteunknown "the Black Sea flood"
DeleteIf you have evidence, and a source we can read, of a world-wide flood (not just the Black Sea) please tell us about it. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia which would love to present evidence of a world-wide flood says there is no evidence. If you have evidence it would be the first ever in the world.
more literalism. sea levels rose 200-400 feet around the world, inundating land areas such as the Bering Strait bridge, the Indonesian land mass, etc. to me, that would qualify as a worldwide flood, at least an event of sufficient magnitude to give rise to a worldwide flood story. I have not read the C.E. account but as far as I know I am under no obligation to take the Noah account literally. maybe Matt could comment on that aspect.
Deleteunknown "sea levels rose 200-400 feet around the world"
DeleteThat's funny. The spot where you are sitting right now is 900 feet about sea level. Did you fail to notice in be C.E. that powerful and knowledgeable people in the Catholic Church consider the flood story to be literal? You are in trouble.
The ancient people of the time of the flood had no idea the continents of Antarctica, North America or South America even existed. Had they ventured to Australia, Japan, India, China, Greenland or Iceland? Of course not. There was no way they could confirm the entire world had been flooded.
ReplyDeleteThere is also no way Jon or any other modern person could say what wasn't flooded!
Confining the discussion to the area known by the writer(s) of the story of Noah and the flood, there has been great research. Yes, there was a flood of "biblical" proportions.
There are a few important things to consider.
(1) Mankind had sinned so greatly that God deemed it time to wipe out all but Noah and his kin.
(2) The ark housed not only Noah and his kin but numerous animals; enough to start what would be considered "all" the animals Noah would need at the end of the flood.
(3) Noah become Adam II in the sense God was starting over.
(4) God promised that mankind would not be destroyed en masse again and placed a rainbow in the sky as a reminder of His promise to mankind. Subsequently, every rainbow seen since then is another reminder.
(5) Since Noah's time, much has transpired. Jesus Christ was born, lived, suffered, died and was risen and ascended into Heaven. The devil has been defeated. Heaven is open to all souls; past, present and future.
If people want to fret about the details of the flood, so be it. The 5 points listed above are what's important.
Matt "There are a few important things to consider (1) Mankind had sinned to greatly God deemed....."
DeleteJust like the flood, we have no evidence "mankind had sinned." And, like the flood, that was manufactured by those who made up the story for some purpose that had at the time.
"(3) Noah became Adam II in the sense God was starting over."
If you actually read the Catholic Encyclopedia you would learn that most probably there were other groups of people in other parts of the world at the time the tale of Noah was supposed to have happened.
(4) "..rainbow..reminder of his promise..."
I would think in your engineering studies you would have taken some physics. The rainbow is the product of reflection and refraction of sun rays. It had to have been present since there was rain and sun--certainly long before there were humans. The God thing makes a nice story. But just like sin and the flood, it's not true.
Jon, you have faith in things you have never seen or experienced. First, there is evidence of a great flood. Second, mankind had greatly sinned as evidenced by oral tradition and the writings of Moses. You can't quite grasp the concept of starting over with 'Adam II' just as you have trouble understanding Adam, Jesus, Mary, etc. I pointed you to a website reference in my original post that answers all your non-questions. Gee, physics, is that a school thing? I'm too stoooopid to understand such advanced scientificas.
DeleteIn the end, I just feel sorry for you. Time is running short.
the flood story is not true? then why does it show up in so many world cultures? obviously something happened back there that left an impression on mankind. I have offered a possible -- and I think plausible -- explanation. that, however, is about as far I can go. I have not given much thought to the Noahide Covenant, nor to the sin matter. I would say tho' that, like most of the old stories there is some truth behind it. I don't think that stories such as these are made up of whole cloth by some cave man sitting by his fire while roasting his kill.
DeleteUnknown "Why does it come up in so many cultures."
DeleteIt comes up in many cultures because both humans and animals had to live near water. If they lived near water they, at some point watched the water flood. It got put into their folklore because it was unusual and humans attributed it to something somewhere else, a god.
that could be a factor but I think that it fails to explain a flood as massive as that put forth by Scripture or, for that matter, by the ancient Greeks. remember that for the latter the world had to be repopulated. interestingly, also, the Scripture story talks about a long period of rain. maybe "climate change" associated with the breakdown of the Ice Age?
DeleteIf Jon or anyone else is truly serious about understanding the Catholic position on the Noah flood, I refer you to https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/deluge
ReplyDeleteIf nothing else, you will appreciate how much thought and research - scientific, theological, and historical - went into this subject.
Remember, theology* will never refute science and science will never refute theology.
*Miracles, excepted.
Matt; "If Jon ... is truly serious ...I refer you to.." the Catholic Encyclopedia.
DeleteI wrote a lot about the Catholic Encyclopedia in my blog.
Matt "Time is running short."
DeleteIt is true we all die. Time is running short for people who believe myths are history and who waste their time while alive talking to mythical and invisible beings. Better to use your time making life better for humans who follow. There is a lot each of us can do--non of it involves magical thinking or mythical beings. Developing a higher level of idealism and selflessness is a noble goal for all of us.
Regarding prayer, and whether it is answered, the Our Father prayer has been said by billions of people trillions of times. It contains 7 central supplications:
Delete"Our Father, who art in heaven
1) Hallowed be thy name
2) Thy kingdom come
3) Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven
4) Give us this day our daily bread
5) And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us
6) And lead us not into temptation
7) But deliver us from evil. Amen"
We pray that God's name be hallowed.
We pray for the second coming of Christ.
We pray that God's Will be done on earth.
We pray for spiritual and mortal food.
We pray for forgiveness and promise to forgive others.
We pray that we will not even be tempted to sin.
We pray that evil will not tempt us to sin.
Google sea fossils on top of Mt Everest. Continental drift. An old argument, never acknowledged by Jon, National geological survey says before significant drift,(a lumpy earth), the absence of oceanic troughs, and mountains pushed up, there was enough water to cover the entire earth up to 200 ft. That is science.
ReplyDeleteIn fact the SCIENTISTS believe at one time, the earth was most likely a water world.
Deletehelper "An old argument, never acknowledged by Jon"
DeleteThere is no need to acknowledge because it has nothing to do with the Bible. Mt. Everest was formed by crusts colliding 60 million years ago. The Rockies 55 to 80 years ago. Humans have been here 2-300,00 years. The OT was written a few thousand years ago, single digit. The earth and it atmosphere have a finite amount of moisture. If there is enough for 200 feet when the earth is flat it means vast portions would have been above water for millions of years. There is not enough water to "cover the earth" as the Noah stories claims.
That is science.
The Noah story is nonsense.
Helper "In fact the SCIENTISTS believe at one time, the earth was most likely covered with water."
DeleteYes, millions of years before humans. That is SCIENCE. Get some.
aquatic fossils on top of Everest? the H mountain range , as far as I know of the science involved, was pushed up when a piece of land (now the Indian subcontinent) pushed into the Asian continent. plate tectonics and all that.
DeleteDidn't say Noah story. Timelines can vary. Science contradicts what you defensively claim. Land masses come and go. Got science.
Deletehelper "Timelines can vary. Science contradicts what you defensively claim. Land masses come and go."
DeleteTimelines can vary by 50 million years??? Science contradicts the mountains are 50 million and Noah under ten thousand years?? I didn't know you were part of that religious anti science group.
How many "millions of years" before some land poked up from the surface? Fish with hands crawled out, eventually became primates. At least that's what the scientists say. Primates have memory.
Deletehelper "Primates have memory."
DeleteWHAT?? The first one cell form of life passed on the story of Noah's flood to the first fish a few million years later. Then the fish passed it on the first crawling creature on land. Then a few million years later the Noah flood story was passed onto dinosaurs.
Humans came AFTER all this.
You are getting the cart several million years before the horse.
How about that dino chicken?
DeleteI 'spose you'r about done printing as usual.
helper -- You are making no sense whatsoever. The question is, could there have been a flood that covered the entire earth at the time Noah's flood was supposed to have happened. The answer is no there could not have been such a flood. There was was ad is not enough water to have covered the mountains or high plains of the word. There is no evidence there was such a flood.
DeleteNow you have launched into a discussion of something entirely different which I cannot understand. It's about dinosaurs and dino chickens which existed before the time of Noah. Somehow they are supposed to remember the flood of Noah when the Noah story had its origin millions of years later. I give up.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Deletehelper--Accidently deleted you question. It was I think "How do you know where the Noah flood story came from. You are just speculating when you say it came from campfires."
ReplyDeleteI know the story came from somewhere in human history. It was not passed down from monkeys.
So, do you know when the transition took place, around the monkey fire?
DeleteHelper--When you decide to explain what your point is or what you problem is I'll be happy to publish it. Until you decide to do that we'll have to end it here.
ReplyDeleteIt seems ever five years or so, time gets pushed back a few million years. Just to fit the current presumption. The goal posts are moved to defend/ justify a preconceived theory. Science you say?
DeleteJon,
ReplyDeleteThe Epic of Gilgamesh poem written in Akkadian is about a hero of Mesopotamian mythology. It also tells of a character named Utnapishtim whose story has a few common themes shared by the flood story and Noah in the book of Genesis. The Epic of Gilgamesh apparently predates the authoring of the book of Genesis. However it is said the Noah story is based on an oral tradition that predates the tales of Gilgamesh. One of the characters, Utnapishtim, was dealing with several gods unlike Noah. Some of the gods ganged up and wanted to wipe out the “noisy humans” with a flood. One benevolent god warned Utnapishtim. He built a boat to save his family and some animals, survived a deluge, and for his effort was rewarded with immortality. No need in this tale for a single temperamental deity that wanted to both save humanity and destroy it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utnapishtim
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/religionprof/2008/03/can-noahs-ark-be-salvaged.html
more evidence indicating that something really cataclysmic happened back in prehistoric times. seems to me that I have read something about gods and annoying, uppity humans. but don't remember any details.
DeleteUnknown;
DeleteIf you want to call a character in a poem about a mythological hero evidence that’s fine. Gilgamesh was 2/3 god and 1/3 human in search of immortality. There is also a special tree in a garden, a serpent living in the tree, birds used to search for land from a floating boat, a pregnant virgin, and on and on. This flood was limited to the Tigris and Euphrates river basin I believe. One of many complex, convoluted, and entertaining tales of mythical heroes. We all love a good story.
Ardy B "If you want to call a character in a poem about a mythological hero evidence that's fine."
DeleteAnd it's humorous too. I've wondered why various characters and animals played one role in some Bible stories and another role in others. Jesus is one example. How and when be became divine change when one gets to the Book of John. If he really existed and really was some kind of god you would think the story would be told without variation.
Then there is the bird in the Noah story that comes back with a twig. In the Adam and Eve story animals like the snake could talk. So, why didn't the bird just tell Noah what was over the horizon. Those who made up the stories had their reasons--I'd like to know what they were.
Arby, you are wrong re the Tigris. Euphrates. the Black Sea flood, so far as I know, was very real and sudden. undoubtedly many people were wiped out, having cultivated the land around edge of what was then a much smaller and shallower body of water. (at least that is what I have read about the archeological explorations in the area). and do keep in mind that the Black Sea area was probably very active (from a human point of view). it is thought for example, that the Indo-European language started in the general vicinity. and perhaps the Semitic languages as well. As to the ancient myths/poems, don't laugh: they are important in understanding the mind-set and cultures of ancient peoples.
DeleteUnknown Mar 29, 2020 at 7:57 AM
Delete“Arby, you are wrong re the Tigris. Euphrates.”
I sure could be but remember King Gilgamesh and Utnapishtim are mythical characters. My reading is that Utnapishtim built his arc on the banks of the Euphrates river near Shuruppak, now Tell Fara, south of Nippur in Iraq. As the story goes, on the seventh day, after 6 days and nights of rain he beached his craft near Mount Nisir and the city of Sulaymaniyah in Iraqi Kurdistan. I think Mount Nisir is about 300 miles from Mount Ararat. We’re talking 6 days and nights of rain not 40.
Just a typo I’m sure but my name is Ardy not Arby. I don’t now and never have sold roast beef sandwich’s.
helper, were you trying to say that a water covered earth is some how "remembered" in our DNA. some kind of a primal archetype?
ReplyDelete@ 8;00 nope.
Delete