Under Discussion: Eliminating the Priesthood
The notion that Catholic clergy serve for life was challenged by Benedict's retirement. But, the problem of a clergy culture of privilege is thought to be enhanced by the guarantee of lifetime employment. Various ideas to radically change the priesthood are being discussed and even mentioned publicly.
The economic exchange between clergy and the Catholic church are simple. A man pledges to not marry and work for the church for life. In exchange the church grants him lifetime employment and a special status rank. This latter is handled by nearly all Catholic clergy well but a few see it as an opportunity to rape and plunder.
Observing the cover up and secrecy around these bad apples one can see how the exchange theory used to employ these men caused terrible mistakes in management of the enterprise. The vows of poverty and celibacy caused clergy to abandon the idea of employer with expectations about the work of employees to one of fraternity. "We are all part of a special fraternity. Those on the outside are schmucks and don't understand the sacrifices we all make. We must protect our brothers from the forces in the secular world. If there are pedophiles, their presence must be kept a secret. We will move them from parish to parish and hope for the best."
While it is said the number of pedophiles has fallen some remain. Religion, especially the Catholic Church, cannot survive when new cases, no matter how few, keep showing up.
The problem goes back to the structure of the institution of the Priest. The exchange between the church and the incoming clergy is so flawed there is not way to fix the problem pedophilia problem.
There is a large segment of the faith that has largely avoided the pedophile. It is the branches of what we call "mainline" Protestant churches. The business model of Methodists, Lutherans, etc. is superior to that of either Catholics or "free" churches, those not affiliated with a denomination.
The Catholic Church is the ultimate private version of socialism. Clergy are supported for life. Protestantism is the ultimate capitalism. Clergy are hired at market salaries and can be replaced if they do not measure up.
re. "the business model of yada yada"--------Correction; the ecclesiastical model.
ReplyDeletere. "Clergy are hired". yes, for some, not all. Others are "called", The minister either accepts or declines the call. Nor can they be "fired". They can accept a call elsewhere, or loose their credentials if proven to be guilty of criminal behavior, or defying dogmatics. They are also considered self employed as per IRS.
We've been through all this before. You conveniently forget.
Deletehelper "Others and 'called""
DeleteI don't use the word "called." It is a euphemism for the proper words, "Offered a job." "Called" is a term that was used in my childhood church. I am sure it meant at that time and yet today, "Called by God." Using the term "called" further confuses what happens when a church offers a job to someone and he accepts. My father used to muse about the word "called." He would smile and ask, "Why is it God calls our preachers from churches paying less money to ours that pays more?"
yawn. for athesists, it seems, everything is reduced to the lowest common denominator. ultimately, everything is the mere interaction of material particles. no calls to a vocation, just getting a job. no third dimension, just a mind numbing horizontal two dimensional reality. that said, what's the point: Jon knows the reality and wallows in it.
DeleteThere is a huge difference between being called and being hired. A fact you are oblivious of. You are not an authority on this, no how much you bluster and blow. There are suggested guidelines for payment based on size of congregation, or two church parishes, provided by synod. The congregations choose the amount. Often older pastors want smaller churches to serve, due to the reduced work load. Or new pastors getting their "legs". Perhaps the pastors of your youth were more obsessed with money than serving?
DeleteJon March 10, 2020 @ 5:41 PM:
Delete“Why is it God calls our preachers from churches paying less money to ours that pays more?" Maybe it’s the “profit motive” of the “ultimate capitalism” of the Protestant faith. Or as Paula White of prosperity gospel fame and faith counselor to Trump says, “I don't want pie in the sky by and by, I want some ham where I am.". I like the idea of term limits for Catholic priests (and Congress).
Here are Six Distinguishing Marks of a Call to Gospel Ministry I found at
[ https://www.ligonier.org/blog/6-distinguishing-marks-call-gospel-ministry/ ]
1. inner compulsion
2. an outside influence
3. a loving concern for others
4. an overwhelming constraint to do this work
5. sobering humility
6. corporate confirmation
From the same article; “Preachers are born, not made. This is an absolute. You will never teach a man to be a preacher if he is not already one.”
Helper "You are not an authority on this no matter how much you bluster and blow."
DeleteI don't think it is a sin to refer to the business arrangement between a church organization and a preacher a job offer and an acceptance of an offer instead of a "call". I don't think it is blasphemy either. It's simply an accurate description of the deal that has been struck.
I can't help it that this annoys you to no end. It's just another version of reality that is always healthy to recognize.
Jon; As I said, your professor badge has lost it's luster, and your authority on this is nil.
DeleteJon did I say your position is a sin? Absolutely not. Ignorance is not a sin.
DeleteAnd it's the individual congregations who issues the call of those provided by Synod. The Synod is not church, but a service organization who's purpose is to train pastors, credential them, coordinate missions, provide printed materials through the publishing house, and act as consultant to the individual congregations. It is the individual congregation who provides evidence for criminal behavior, in conjunction with synod, to be turned over to police, and liable if found out not to do so, and evidence of dogmatic deviation. It is the synod who removes the credentials if found to be so.
ReplyDeleteyes, there is a difference between being called and hiring. since Jon rules out any possibility of transcendence, he only sees the economic aspect of the issues. hiring being merely a utilitarian quid pro quo deal.
ReplyDeleteUnknown "since Jon rules out any possibility of transcendence..."
DeleteI looked up the fancy word, "transcendence." I learned it takes place when one chants while doing yoga. I didn't rule this out at all.
Jon, to put in words that you can understand, it refers to that which transcends, is beyond, the chance interplay of particles (as in Jon's world). it may refer to Plato's world of the forms or "ugh" God or a god.
DeleteUnknown "forms of 'ugh' God or a god."
DeleteJust what I thought, chanting while doing yoga.
Back on topic:
ReplyDeleteHere is a compelling article in the June 2019 issue of “The Atlantic” titled “Abolish the Priesthood” “To save the Church, Catholics must detach themselves from the clerical hierarchy—and take the faith back into their own hands.” https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/to-save-the-church-dismantle-the-priesthood/588073/
A quote from the article: “The charges told of a ring of pedophile priests who gave many of their young targets the gift of a gold cross to wear, so that the other predator priests could recognize an initiated child who would not resist an overture.”
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland
Eliminating apostolic succession would go a long way to reduce the problem of protecting and hiding the many problems. That won't happen though, as Apostolic Succession is a dogmatically declared absolute. (The bull by the tail thingie). If one falls, infallibility falls, including the infallibility of the Pope / magisterium.
Deletelittle helper Mar 11, 2020 at 10:47 AM
DeleteI have read that the concept of apostolic succession has never been found in scripture. Also that the notion of Peter as the leader of the apostles is a stretch. Paul and James were said to be at least on a par with Peter as influencers. My understanding from earlier posts by you and others is that scripture is the final authority by which the veracity of dogma is measured. Enter controversy over the interpretation of scripture, even a single word of scripture, and the infallibility of the final authority gets cloudy. That said, “apostolic succession” seems just another artifact of some creative early church fathers, the value of which is thoroughly enjoyed by the clerical hierarchy throughout its history.
Ardy; re. "scripture final authority of dogma....gets cloudy".
DeleteLet me show how cloudy. I asked a priest for his best defense for the assumption of Mary. (the taking of Mary to heaven). His reply was; "You don't think Jesus would let his mother rot in the ground would you". (declared a dogma in 1950) I do know they use selective verses from the apocrypha (Intertestemental writings with Greek influence). This means this, so that must mean that. (word smithing.) to justify a predetermined result. Common practice.
I wonder if they are any priests writing blogs on the evils of economic professors?
ReplyDeleteMatt "I wonder if there are any priests writing blogs on the evils of economics professors?"
DeleteSomeday, perhaps, an economists will say, "Upon this rock..." referred to economics professors, not priests. With that absolute ranking of economics professors above the rest of society it will be time to blog about their evil deeds.
You can start immediately. In academia, it is the ego-inflating Ph.D. and tenure which provides them their mantle of elitism.
DeleteIn the Catholic priesthood, the vast majority of priests are exactly opposite of what you pain them. They serve their flocks, not preside over them. They impart knowledge of the faith to them, having spent up to 8 years in seminary. They administer the Sacraments since that is what ordination brings them. They listen to confessions. They say Mass every day and multiple times on weekends. They baptise. The witness marriages. They celebrate funeral Masses, grieve the mourning and do it all knowing they represent Christ on earth. They do it all for pauper's wages. And unlike Jon's lies, these priests are not guaranteed income for life.
A priest would never write a blog about the evils of economics professors. It would be beneath him. And it certainly would not be in his calling. Besides, with all his priestly duties, he would have no time for such foolishness.
Matt--I agree nearly all the clergy are good people. I only go back to the link which explains why that institution, the priesthood as it is now structured with the clergy in charge if itself, is unsustainable.
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