What is the Absolute and Final Truth About Noah's Flood
The flood of the Old Testament is taught to children and the old as well. The happy story of God drowning all those sinful babies apparently brings joy to believers.
The question is, did it ever happen at all and if it did what exactly happened? One way (not mine) is to study the scriptures carefully and see what they say. Since the scriptures are either written by God or guided by God surely they will reveal accurately what happened.
Those who adhere most enthusiastically to words in the Bible, called literalists, could perhaps be the ones to tell us what exactly happened. Fortunately we can eavesdrop on what they see in the Bible. This way we can know precisely what it says. Such an observation on the flood appeared recently on the site, Christian Post.
Discussed were the views of Hugh Ross, a part time professor in religious colleges and founder of a group called "Reason to Believe" said people are reading the Bible wrong when they say it says the entire earth was flooded.
Ross, a literalist, says we have to remember Noah could only see a few miles so he had the impression the entire world was flooded when it was not. The first time Noah released a dove the dove came back. But, Ross says, the dove flies quite low and would not see the dry land some miles away.
The reason Ross is certain the entire world was not flooded is in scripture. God said, according to Ross, God only drowned sinners. Thus, those many whom God found not to be sinners were not harmed by flood.
The comments following the article are filled with bitter vitriol against Ross. One wrote that elsewhere in Geneses it says God downed all people and animals except those saved in the ark. Another asked why would God order Noah to load the ark with animals if they were safe elsewhere? Those readers said they themselves are the true literalists and Ross is not.
So, we have not learned what the Bible really says about the Noah flood. Those who claim to know exactly what the Bible says cannot agree.
get over it, Jon. it is obvious (to me at least to me) that the story derives from ancient memories of some calamity/calamities involving disastrous floods (flood stories appear in many cultures) and unusual weather conditions. those old goat herders (as you contemptuously refer to them) sacralized the stories and God got blamed. we don't know whether Noah was an actual or fictionized character. but who cares? either way the story is there for a purpose. but use a little common sense. do you ever consider getting past your literalism.
ReplyDeleteunknown "get over it, Jon....do you ever consider getting past your literalism."
ReplyDeleteI said in the blog I did not consider the story literal. If you care to take the time, you might read the link which is literalists arguing about literalism. You might find it quite interesting.
I read it. didn't see anything particularly noteworthy. ever since I reached the 6th grade or so, I assumed that the story grew out of post glacial flooding when sea level 'round the world rose at the end of the last Ice Age. or perhaps sudden flooding of the Mediterranean basin. or perhaps the sudden flooding of the Black Sea basin or maybe all of the above. the latter now supported by archeological exploration.
ReplyDeleteUnknown "I assumed the story grew out of ....the latter now supported by archeological exploration."
DeleteIt would be helpful if every Christian denomination taught that the flood is a myth. But, perhaps the majority of Christians are taught the world flood covering every living thing was a historical event. If you read the comments of the link there are angry people insisting the literal description of a world wide flood is most certainly true.
So the story goes the daughters of humans were so irresistible even the sons of god could not resist the temptation to interbreed. The result was a bunch of famous giant heroes. No mention of famous giant heroines of course. These half breeds were an unintended distorted image of the almighty plus the offspring of Cain were all running wild so the creator pulled the chain and flushed them all away. Only eight offspring of Seth, the third son of the couple banished from The Garden, and a selection of animal breeding pairs were left floating. They were eventually beached on a mountain with a promise there would never be a double flush and here we are. No need for another world wide flood in the age of nuclear weapons with autocrats squeezing their triggers. Just a lake of fire and smoke on the water. Sort of a secularized end of times. Good luck all. Happy Thanksgiving.
ReplyDeleteif I get your comment aright it is nothing more than the usual scoffing dismissal. For my part, I had forgotten about the sons of gods business. Now that I am reminded, my curiousity is aroused (as yours should have been, too). What is the meaning of these strange passages? They are there for a reason. I know, of course, how he Ancient Alien folks have interpreted them. That aside what is going on here. What motivated this story? I would like to know.
DeleteIt was a flood. now it's climate change.
Deleteunknown "...it is nothing more than the usual scoffing dismissal...What motivated this story? I would like to know."
DeleteYour comment is directed at Ardy B and I hope he will comment. As to what motivated this story is the best comment you have made here. That is a great question.
To answer that question we have to admit we will never know completely. But, we can try to envision who wrote the story and then further attempt to speculate on why it was written.
As my American Baptist preacher friend and Biblical scholar often notes, "Those who wrote the Bible had a specific point they wanted to make and a specific audience they wanted to influence." That seems like a reasonable starting place for me.
It is inevitable those who wrote the Bible were very wealthy people. Do we assume they wanted to use their wealth and literacy to persuade the masses to behave or do what they, the wealthy, preferred they do? That is the assumption I would make. If I am correct, the purpose of the flood story was to persuade the masses to do whatever it was the wealthy wanted them to do.
Unknown November 26, 2019 @ 9:36 AM; My “scoffing dismissal” was an attempt to summarize in my own terms Genesis 6:1–22 as presented here https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Gen6 . The story this text conveys, taken literally, is so foreign to my ears, dare I say bizarre, that the tint of sarcasm in my exegesis may be a defense mechanism of some kind that I care not to suppress. Taken figuratively it is certainly about the power of an autocratic authority that shows deference to the elected few that tow his line. Many people model this example today. Maybe this tale is the expression of an aggressive instinct in its human author. Best wishes.
Deleteyes. of course, they had some purpose or point in mind. that is obvious. the question is: what point specifically? I don't think that it had anything to do with fooling the masses". It's just not that kind of story. ditto with the flood story. moreover, I don't think that we should assume that wealthy people wrote the Scriptures. they most likely were written by scribes and teachers who may or may not have been wealthy. I am curious but unlike you, I don't have any pat (and clearly spurious) answers to my question.
DeleteAB1203: you not only missed the boat, I don' think that you even know that there was a boat leaving.
DeleteUnknown November 26, 2019 @ 1:25 PM; “pat answers” I appreciate your curiosity but you are asking what motivates the Genesis flood story from someone that provides only “the usual scoffing dismissal[s]” and “clearly spurious answers”. You sound frustrated and your hostility is unbecoming. All I can supply is my take, my opinion, on someone else’s interpretation of a translation of ancient text of unknown authenticity. Who knows? Maybe the behavior of those naughty boys, those sons of God, prior to the flood, influenced the composition of the first commandment given to Israel; “You shall have no other gods before me”. Those that hear a god talking to them think it a revelation only need open wide stick out their tongue and the voice stops. They are talking to themselves.
Deleteunknown "I don't think we should assume that wealthy people wrote the scriptures. they were most likely written by scribes or teachers who may or may not have been wealthy. "
DeleteWhile most written material did not survive from 2,000 to 5,000 years ago, a fair volume recopied material did. The economics of ordinary people is quite agreed upon. It was VERY unusual for a person to be able to both write and read. Some could read but not write. To read and write one had to be very wealthy. Perhaps it would be like someone who works at McDonald's today and has a child. For that child to be literate would require the parent at McDonalds to send her to Europe for a few years and pay all the expenses. Will not happen. People back in Old and New T. times needed to work from sun up to sun down and their children all needed to work just as hard and just as long. Learning to read and write was not even an option except for great wealth.
Thus, your "teacher" or "scribe" were very wealthy or they were not teachers or scribes. That is where my assumption comes from that the Bible was written by the wealthy. If you have information there were "middle class" people and those middle class people were literate it is different than everything I have read.
seems to me that those old societies had traders, scribes (i.e. bureaucrats) who could read and write) and who were not necessarily wealthy. the Babylonians, for example have left behind large numbers of clay cuneiform records of mercantile transactions, records that no doubt required the work of many literate scribes. writing, I seems, began about 4000 BCE. I gather that you don't really know much ancient history.
Deleteunknown "I gather you don't know much about ancient history." The literacy rate is estimated to have been at best 3%. Because people of lower income needed to work to survive this 3% had to come from the top 3% of wealth. I gather you don't really know much about ancient history.
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_ancient_Israel_and_Judah#Literacy
what is your source for the three percent figure? but even if the three percent is correct, the three percent were not necessarily wealthy. your logic limps a little as they say. but I suppose that you have to stick by your story, come whatever.
DeleteI'm trying to be patient here. Wikipedia provides footnotes with sources. As to whether or not the 3% were all rich people, I would only ask how someone not rich in ancient times could eat if they did not work? There were no public schools. I think we are done discussing this.
DeleteArdy "Sort of a secularized end of times."
ReplyDeleteLots of wisdom and theology in that post. I'm wondering if the general public at the time of Noah knew anything about what was going on. God told Noah but the Bible does not say he told the general public. There were no preachers on cable TV to tell them they must repent or drown. It's likely none of them had ever heard of original sin or the coming end. If they had heard about it they would have built their own arks or stormed Noah's and eaten all the animals. Evidence from the story tells us they could not have known what was coming.
If there is a god, today we might be experiencing the same thing. Suppose this god is angry at how many humans are not being good stewards of the earth. So, the god is letting global warming take place. The god will punish the sinners, those Trump supporting religious conservatives that scoff at global warming. But, just like the sinners God drowned during the flood, the current religious conservatives have no idea they are the sinners and are doomed. Liberals, on the other hand, will be spared for their good stewardship and light victory cigars when the end comes.
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Deleteas I said floods, global warming, overpopulation, incipient ice ages, asteroids . humans seem to like disaster scenarios of one sort or another. plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
ReplyDelete