Priest Speculates About Heaven at a Funeral. Parents Sue
Christian defenders like to say their religion does so much good. They don't subtract the bad to see if there is any good left over.
A young man in Detroit committed suicide. At the funeral their priest speculated about whether he went to heaven or not, the faith condemns suicide. The parents are suing that diocese.
Apparently, the priest saw his job as making parents who are already feeling miserable more miserable. It all started with the myth there is a heaven and only certain insiders get to go there.
We feel the urge to spit on a priest or preacher who says such a thing. But, what about the jerks back in ancient time who make up the concept of hell? The real misery started there.
It is widely believed, of course, that whoever the men were who wrote the original Bible were telling folk tales that had been passed down to them. And, there is little doubt the tales came from worship of previous gods and the cultures that were home to them.
But, I'm certain of this. When the first story teller entertaining those around him sitting around a fire in pre recorded times told of hell, he did not believe he was going there himself. He was certain other lesser people were going there.
And that remains today. The priest speculating about hell for a recently dead young man did not believe he himself was headed for hell. It is always someone else. To judge others is one of the great pleasures of life.
I don't know law well enough to predict the outcome of this lawsuit. Somehow I doubt the parents will be successful. Even if they are unsuccessful maybe it will teach the priest and diocese to be less judgmental.
The real lesson is for parents everywhere is to leave the church and have happier lives.
Not all priests are so medieval. Mental illness is recognized as a contributing factor, along with drugs, and other considerations.
ReplyDeleteHelper "Not all priests are so medieval...." Correct. Most are fine people. To repeat, there is a calculation to be made as to whether the benefits given society by Christianity (and all religion) is greater than the harm done. I don't know the answer, just saying we should all ask.
ReplyDeleteTimes have changed indeed. Twenty plus years ago my wife attended a funeral for a gay hometown young man who contracted AIDS and eventually committed suicide. His father had disowned him. The funeral was held in a Missouri Synod Lutheran church. I am speculating but in those days it may have been hard to find a church or even a cemetery in ND for service and burial of an AIDS infected gay victim of suicide. She came home from the funeral appalled at the minister’s sermon. She described the sermon as sinful. To little helper’s list of contributing factors I would add war time combat. I lost a younger brother, a combat veteran of the war in Vietnam, to suicide.
Delete"There is a calculation to be made as to whether the benefits given society by Christianity (ONLY) is greater than the harm done.
DeleteLet's see the calculation, and the sources. Beyond that, yours is only biased speculation.
Helper "Beyond that, yours is only biased speculation." What is mine? I don't recall saying what the result of subtracting the bad from the good would be. I merely said it would be healthy for us all to do that.
Delete@ 12;32; Sounds like separating the wheat from the chaff. Also "Let the weeds grow among the grain, and separate them at harvest. Didn't know you were so biblical,.
DeleteArdy @ 8;58; 20 yr, ago, there was a lot of unsubstantiated fear of AIDS. I would guess the father's disowning was the key factor for his suicide. I have been in attendance at suicide funerals in the LCMS, more than 20 yr. ago, and have not seen the kind of sermon you report. The general theme has been; Justification by grace through faith. Regardless of who or what has happened. That being said, I suspect there were a few pastors in the distant past that were not as pastoral as they should have been, or been taught. I suspect that pastor is dead by now. Even the founders were more generous than what you report. In Walther's "Pastoral Theology" (1st President of the LCMS dated 1872,) He said; "...or because of suicide committed out of melancholy. (mental depression) But the last will of the deceased alone is not enough for the pastor to omit the cusomary and solemn funeral ceremonies." Which always contains the Gospel of Grace.
Deletelittle helper November 17, 2019 @ 11:47; “yours is only biased speculation” I said I was speculating. I am not going to “make a calculation” that the attitude of North Dakota Missouri Synod Lutheran clergy or any other Christian clergymen in the state has changed concerning funeral sermons for suicidal homosexual victims of AIDS. They better damn well have. There are homosexual and suicidal parishioners in North Dakota church pews and likely at the pulpit as well, whether out or not. You make the calculation if you want. As to any bias I or any other non-theist may harbor, it serves a vital role as a catalyst for correcting the excesses of theistic zeal. Best wishes.
DeleteArdy; @ 2;15; My "speculation" was aimed at Jon. I should have been more specific.
DeleteThere is no difference between ND MN or any place else with the LCMS. It is all one synod.
See my 1;51.
And yes, we do have homosexuals in attendance. I know one personally who is a member of the church council . How's that for non-discrimination? Thank you.
Take a cool mint.
Ardy re. homosexuals in attendance; I can think of three more, and one did die of AIDS. Two were / are females. One is home bound, and the pastor visits with the sacrament on a regular basis.
DeleteAnother cool mint.
Elements like Jim Jones, Waco Adventists, Arian Nations, Other Christian named cults, etc. don't count.
ReplyDeleteRecently there has been a rash of gang, drug, gun related crimes in. Mpls, St. Paul. Their mothers MAY be Christian, Their fathers are largely absent. All sure indications of the absence of Christianity. Consider several politicians. Unless you can provide evidence of regular church (of any kind,) attendance/ activity among these actors, your claim is void. Their numbers show the LACK of Christianity is a large contributing factor. Also being poor or dead broke is not an excuse to not being a Christian. Church attendance is free. They don't charge admission, If they do, it is not Christian.
I read an article by a warden of a prison, (can't remember who right now), where he said they became Christian AFTER being caught. as it looks good on their records for parole.
The Mafia, drug cartels, Vodoo, and many prison gangs have a veneer of christianity, but they are a far cry from anything even remotely related to Christianity. They also do not qualify.
I once asked a fellow what church he belonged to. He said "I drive by a Catholic church daily . I must be a Catholic. True story.
ReplyDeleteis suicide still a bad thing? seems that some folks don't think so. suicide clinics (as in Switzerland), PAS in seven states, Canada and elsewhere. maybe it's only bad for the hale and hearty. but for those that aren't? BTW, none of us should be telling us about who is saved and who is not. who knows. maybe even Hitler and Stalin made it somehow.
ReplyDeleteSuicide is the killing of a human being, one's self. It is a violation of the Ten Commandments, "Thou Shalt Not Kill". It was taught during my upbringing that people who committed suicide were in Hell. That is why no funeral Mass was held. The deceased probably could not be buried in a Catholic cemetery although that is only assumption on my part. Now, suicide victims are accorded a Catholic funeral if they professed the Catholic faith while they were alive.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know, the Church is silent on who is in Hell other than the Devil and his followers. Christ tells us that many more choose Hell over Heaven. So, the Church declares who are saints (in Heaven) but not the opposite.
There certainly isn't a case for this lawsuit. If so, it would open the door to anyone who proclaimed another person to be in Hell, etc.
Suicide is the result of hopelessness in many cases. Self-hate or perceived faults can take over a person's soul. Every person is worthy of respect, or at least tolerance. Somehow, those around the suicide victim share some of the blame in an indirect way. Kindness can go a long way.