Jesus Helps Anti Welfare Politics
The passage is in Mark 14:6-7. A poor lady comes up to Jesus before he is killed and pours expensive perfume on him. He is quoted as saying don't worry that she wasted her money, the poor will always be with us.
No one claims to have been present when Jesus was killed nor claims to have heard the various things it is claimed he said. Some versions of the story in the Bible are incompatible with other versions. And, in the context of whatever point the Biblical authors were trying to make or what audience and purpose the quote was supposed to address, it may not have meant the Jesus character was against welfare for the poor. All kinds of groups use the Bible for their own ends and political conservatives use it here to put a Jesus face on anti welfare.
Scholars critical of the Bible say that when current politicians use Jesus to justify their ends they are merely following a long tradition. The Bible's authors themselves, they say, did this. That is, they put the authors words in the mouth of Jesus when they wanted to score political points.
The words attributed to Jesus are also used by liberals. What is called progressive Christianity or liberation theology uses Jesus to justify help for the poor. I assume Pope Francis has never used Mark 14:6-7 to bolster his case for assisting the poor.
Neither liberals nor conservative need to use the Bible to make their respective cases. When they do we should be suspicious.
re. "He is quoted as saying don't worry that she WASTED her money".
ReplyDeleteStrange quote, as He said nothing of the sort. Your own attachment reveals as much, as do the other translations. "good /noble / beautiful: deed/ thing" is not "wasted.
Snarky indeed.
Helper "Strange quote.." You often preach to us "what the Bible means" and everyone else has the same right. I took my version of the story from King James Version 1900. In verse 5, "For it (the fragrance) might have sold for more than 300 pence....And they murmured against her" in verse 6-7 Jesus speaks and expresses gratitude and tells those around him to leave her alone because a.) it was a nice thing she did and b.) the poor squander their money anyway, "the poor will always be with us." You can make of it what you will. Conservatives have decided he meant the poor will always be poor because they squander their money. I think we can just leave it at that.
DeleteTry Bible Hub site for all the translations. there you will find "wasted" in verse 4, as said by "those present", NOT JESUS as you claim in your 2nd paragraph. ie" He is quoted as saying".
ReplyDeleteAnother example of an atheist not knowing the Bible better than Christians.
I cleared this up. This is another example of atheists knowing the Bible better than Christians.
DeleteJon, you make up the rules so that you never lose. By "knowing" the Bible, you set up a so-called scientific test of Scripture, set the standards for the test and then proclaim yourself the winner. You even have the audacity of not publishing dissenting claims, should you desire (moderator privilege, I guess).
DeleteI would truly enjoy seeing you in a structured debate with an unbiased moderator and a Catholic theologian.
There really is no big mystery here. You don't believe in God. You have free will and no one from Christianity is trying to imprison you or put you to death for your atheism. So be it. But instead of leaving it at that you have to insult people of Faith, running a years-long blog doing nothing but criticizing Christianity and occasionally other faiths. I have yet to read any material you've printed that extols the virtues of atheism.
Your first response to little helper today is a perfect example. You mischaracterize the Bible to make it appear Christianity and Jesus are nothing but frauds.
Matt---"You mischaracterize the Bible to make it appear Christianity and Jesus are nothing but frauds."
DeleteIf I micharacterized the Bible then that big swath of the Republican party, your colleagues, also mischaracterized it. They quote the phrase "the poor will always be with us" to justify making certain they remain poor. You have included me in your circle of those who mischaracterize.
As to "you have the audacity of not publishing dissenting claims" I do not publish all posts by readers. Newspapers do not publish all letter to the editor. I've learned how to keep this blog readership growing--I don't publish repetitive arguments or ones with big words people have to look up.
Jon 7:49: "If I mischaracterized the Bible then that big swath of the Republican party, your colleagues, also mischaracterized it. They quote the phrase "the poor will always be with us" to justify making certain they remain poor."
DeleteWow, just wow. If there is a party of the poor, it is the Democrats. Democrat policies ensure a permanent underclass that will continue to vote Democrat because of the hand-outs. Open borders? More poor people coming in to vote for Democrats. Along comes Trump who creates a robust economy. Suddenly, the poor are moving up the economic ladder to lower class and middle class. Some even more up to high upper middle class. Unemployment is at all-time lows for minority populations. Trade deficits are turning towards trade surpluses. Manufacturing jobs are returning.
Every major city run by Democrats is a mess. LA and San Francisco have problems nearly as bad as Pompeii.
Matt 11:09 AM; Do you have any numbers on changes in the wealth gap, the unequal distribution of assets among residents of the United States, since Trump took office? “Just prior to President Obama's 2014 State of the Union Address, media[7] reported that the top wealthiest 1% possess 40% of the nation's wealth; the bottom 80% own 7%; similarly, but later, the media reported, the "richest 1 percent in the United States now own more additional income than the bottom 90 percent".[8] The gap between the top 10% and the middle class is over 1,000%; that increases another 1,000% for the top 1%.”; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States . Has Trumps “robust economy“ closed the gap?
DeleteMatt 11:09 AM; “Trump Claims the Economy Is the Best Ever—These 11 Facts Tell a Different Story“ https://tcf.org/content/commentary/trump-claims-economy-best-ever-11-facts-tell-different-story/
DeleteIndeed, the poor will always be with us. But the homage paid to Jesus Christ during His time on earth is more important and worthwhile than charitable work as it is what saves the soul.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of saving one's soul, there is the fascinating story of Saint Polycarp, an early martyr of the Church. He was a bishop of the Church, having been ordained by Saint John. the Apostle. The pagans (atheists) of adherents to the Roman emperor gave Polycarp the choice of renouncing Jesus Christ or burning at the stake. Polycarp proclaimed that the fires of a mortal consumption would be quenched upon death but eternal flames, well, they are eternal. When the flames did not consume him, he was stabbed through the heart. Atheists know how to throw a bonfire.
Matt: re Polycarp You should read the 15 pages Bart Ehrman devotes to the death of Polycarp in "Forgery and Counterforgery: The Use of Literary Deceit in Early Christian Polemics." His analysis is 15 pages of small print. You did not mention that the person claiming to have seen the miracle of Polycarp not burning smelled perfume, not fire. And, you left out what happened when they stabbed Polycarp, a dove flew out of his body. Add to that the Jews. They were there cheering on the death of Polycarp. There is all kinds of confusion as to when this so called event was supposed to have happened. The similarity the story has to the story of the crucifixion is "amazing". Critical scholars put the Polycarp tale in the genre of "Biblical Martyrdom". There are several tales like this, all involving some kind of miracle and almost all condemning the Jews.
DeleteChristians know how to make up a good bonfire story.
Matt, P.S. I must add that Ehrman carefully reviews all the arguments for and against the Polycarp tale. The controversy has been going on for some hundreds of years. Apologists who are professors, handle it in this way. They say, "Look, we know this is personal account by someone who saw the miracle. But, it was embellished by later scribes who thought embellishment was needed. So the way to understand it is to edit out all the miracles added after the original was written that are outside of normal miracles. Toss the dove flying out of his body, the perfume and some others. You are left with him not burning while in a fire, a miracle rather similar to the Resurrection and believable."
DeleteYa, you betcha.
It is peculiar and incredulous that you always turn to Bart Ehrman for theology. The weight on Bart's shoulders, carrying every anti-theist argument, will eventually lead to the loss of strength in his legs.
DeleteAs you might imagine, there are dozens of theologians and historians to support the true Saint Polycarp story. Polycarp is named and revered as a saint in many branches of Christianity, not just Roman Catholicism.
I refer you to http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12219b.htm which is but a brief rundown of his martyrdom. You have no proof of embellishment. The dove and perfume are not believed. What is believed is that the fire did not consume him but the dagger wound did kill him. It is also true that he did not turn his back on Christ. He was prepared for the painful death and received it. That is a martyr. Oh, and it was atheists who did him in.
Matt "..you always turn to Ehman for theology." That is incorrect. Ehrman does not advocate a theology. His field is ancient languages and critical reading of the Bible. Now it follows that if he and his colleague find inconsistencies within the Bible or with secular evidence and they point it out, it may affect the theological beliefs of some. But, people are free to continue to believe whatever they wish. Critical scholars of the Bible present information. That is different from theology.
Delete"The dove and the perfume are not believed." A position like that is consistent throughout the faith, pick and choose. The parts of the Bible one likes are considered to be true and historical. The parts not liked were inserted by others for other reasons.
As a recent essay by a former Christian said, when he realized the Noah story was bull$hit he began to wonder about the resurrection. And, so it goes with Polycrap as well.
Ehrman is a bishop in the church of Unbelief which is trying to institute their/your theology on the laws of the USA in addition to other societal structures.
DeleteAs you say, "... Poly-crap." And here is name is Poly-carp. I guess you had feces on the brain.
Jon840: you probably won't post this (along with several other posts that didn't tickle your fancy). But what about a little common sense. We know that a lot of saint stories have been "gussied up" a bit.
Deletethe Polycarp story obviously being one such. Yet there are others that have the marks of a true or essentially true account. Admittedly, it's too bad that Christians sometimes "fall" for tales that common sense or a little skepticism would tell them are clearly untrue (like the dove story). but again, it's easy to attack straw men, in this instance straw men being Christians who like showy miracle stories. Of course you say that all Christian stories fall into that category. OK that's what you think, no need to go over again. All I am trying to do is to point that a lot of junk has gotten into Christian hagiography.
Unknown--"Yet there are others that have the marks of a true or essentially true account."
DeleteThere were heroes in history for sure. But miracles, probably not. I think Christianity has become the victim of over zealous reading. That is, those who wrote the Bible were telling hero stories not intended as history. Along comes later generations who need it to be history to fit the needs of contemporary propaganda.
just for the hell of it, here is my guess re the truth behind the Polycarp story: the fire didn't do the job. wet wood, rain, wind, wasn't hot enough, whatever. the dagger, a coup de grace. a dove, quail or some similar bird happened to fly by.
DeleteMark 14:3-9; Hey! Don’t temper my egoism with your spurious altruism. I’m on my way out. As long as there are “have’s” there will be “have not’s”. After I’m gone you will have plenty of opportunity to practice your own brand of sanctimony. Let me enjoy mine. And as for you my dear lady, your fragrant honorarium is your ticket to fame.
ReplyDelete